WP Old School 2 - SPOILER Thread

[slamjim]

Thought I'd start this up since the first image will be available on Friday. Unfortunately there will not be a flyer ready for the show in Philly but there will be a card. When the flyer is ready I will contact people through the mailing list and people can also get the card with it.

If you're not on my mailing list just PM me your email.

[Sue Mee]

Thought I'd start this up since the first image will be available on Friday. Unfortunately there will not be a flyer ready for the show in Philly but there will be a card. When the flyer is ready I will contact people through the mailing list and people can also get the card with it.

Excellent news.  Thanks Dave!

[BumChex]

So obviously you guys are getting close. Any ETA for the series?

[slamjim]

So obviously you guys are getting close. Any ETA for the series?

We know how that worked out last time! I would guess maybe a few months though. I expect before the year ends.

Everything below I can't elaborate on until the flyer comes out.

I've spoken to Topps about the wrappers and how see-through they were and they will change that. They will also try to mix up the cards in the packs better.

The box run will be larger

There will be a wall poster, sketch poster and binder again.

Since the box run is larger there will be more color sketch cards as well.

All the chase cards have been completely changed or have something a bit different about them.

The envelope with all the chase cards will return (different color and image of course).

Not sure about the box poster yet.

There will be an addition to the OLDS line which should be popular.

Huge, HUGE surprise addition to the set.

Here is a spoiler: The promo card features a box shaped product. 

[RawGoo]

We know how that worked out last time! I would guess maybe a few months though. I expect before the year ends.

Everything below I can't elaborate on until the flyer comes out.

I've spoken to Topps about the wrappers and how see-through they were and they will change that. They will also try to mix up the cards in the packs better.

The box run will be larger

There will be a wall poster, sketch poster and binder again.

Since the box run is larger there will be more color sketch cards as well.

All the chase cards have been completely changed or have something a bit different about them.

The envelope with all the chase cards will return (different color and image of course).

Not sure about the box poster yet.

There will be an addition to the OLDS line which should be popular.

Huge, HUGE surprise addition to the set.

Here is a spoiler: The promo card features a box shaped product. 

Thanks for the news Dave!  I'm glad Topps is giving posters another shot.  Any word on whether they will do pre-orders again?

[Crakola Crayons]

Dave, thanks for the information.  I am very much looking forward to this set.

[slamjim]

Thanks for the news Dave!  I'm glad Topps is giving posters another shot.  Any word on whether they will do pre-orders again?

I think they will do one but I don't know anything concerning the box price, shipping, date of the pre-order, etc.

[Ducko]

Excellent news!! (thanks for all the non-spoiler spoilers!)

Am really looking forward to this series.

[JasonLiebig]

The box run will be larger

Since the box run is larger there will be more color sketch cards as well.

Increasing the print run?  I'm surprised as I expected the run to be set, going forward, and boxes for Old School series one were available for everyone to get all that they wanted.

This isn't like the LE postcards, where collectors missed out due to limited numbers. 

I'm sure Topps' profit margins on Old School were small, but I worry that increasing the box run in any significant way will damage the viability, going forward.  Without taking Topps profits into account, it seemed as though they'd hit the sweet spot for box run.  Enough to have some out for a good while, but not so many that people took them for granted. 

[BumChex]

Increasing the print run?  I'm surprised as I expected the run to be set, going forward, and boxes for Old School series one were available for everyone to get all that they wanted.

This isn't like the LE postcards, where collectors missed out due to limited numbers. 

I'm sure Topps' profit margins on Old School were small, but I worry that increasing the box run in any significant way will damage the viability, going forward.  Without taking Topps profits into account, it seemed as though they'd hit the sweet spot for box run.  Enough to have some out for a good while, but not so many that people took them for granted. 

Totally agree. I liked the more limited feel to OLDS release.  I sure hope this doesn't turn out to be ANS2 where they over printed. That would really hurt the series and turn off collectors. I thought OLDS was just right. Topps will soon find out.

[Taz]

Dave, if you can confirm great but if you cannot it is understood why. Is the plan for all the Old School Series to have the 3 cards per pack with the almost certainty of a set + per box. As far as Old School Two, is there going to be 5x7's? These two factors will determine how many boxes I may purchase, all the sketch's and such are just added bonuses for me.

[Jean Nutty]

Totally agree. I liked the more limited feel to OLDS release.  I sure hope this doesn't turn out to be ANS2 where they over printed. That would really hurt the series and turn off collectors. I thought OLDS was just right. Topps will soon find out.

How would the amount printed turn off collectors or hurt the series?

[Dr Popper]

I think they will do one but I don't know anything concerning the box price, shipping, date of the pre-order, etc.

So you are saying Old School series 2 will be out after Thanksgiving but before Christmas?   LOL!  Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Dr Popper]

Totally agree. I liked the more limited feel to OLDS release.  I sure hope this doesn't turn out to be ANS2 where they over printed. That would really hurt the series and turn off collectors. I thought OLDS was just right. Topps will soon find out.

I bet the increase in production numbers are not significant, like maybe 25 - 33% or something.  I just basing this on a hunch that they wouldn't dramatically alter the format. 

[JasonLiebig]

How would the amount printed turn off collectors or hurt the series?

I think it's the idea that it's somewhat limited, which makes it a bit more special.  

This was discussed a bit before Old School originally launched.  The amount of boxes would be set at, what was it?  3750 boxes? That's a pretty low print run, and print runs would always remain the same for later Old School series.  At least that was the what I took away from it.

I think the issue is just the limited edition nature of products created for a collectible marketplace.  If it's not enough, people get turned off, because they simply cannot get them.  If it's too much, they don't feel the product is special enough, or there is no immediacy perhaps to purchase it.  

The danger comes, in my opinion, if they make more than the collector market can happily absorb.  And, in my opinion, that already happened, at least with regards to the core set.  Not the chase-cards, mind you.  

Without those sketches, I think Topps would still be sitting on a lot of boxes of Old School series 1.  Now, I like the extras and I think they're great, and I'm looking forward to seeing what series two has to offer.  I just think that there is a big risk of dilution of the product if production is increased in any significant way.  At the production levels of series one, there was more than enough product to meet the demands of the hobby.  To produce even more than what the hobby can absorb, is risky.

To rely on chase cards and extras to drive sales to some even higher number, is also dangerous, at least as far as the long-term viability of this collector-only line.  And I don't want to see that happen.  I want to see an Old School series 7, 8, 9, and beyond.

[JasonLiebig]

I bet the increase in production numbers are not significant, like maybe 25 - 33% or something.  I just basing this on a hunch that they wouldn't dramatically alter the format. 

To me, even 25% would seem unwise.  Of course, I know little of what Topps does, nor what they see as the demands of the marketplace. 

[RawGoo]

To me, even 25% would seem unwise.  Of course, I know little of what Topps does, nor what they see as the demands of the marketplace. 

I think they'd like to have some stock around longer than Old School 1 lasted.  Bumping it up from 3,650 to 4,000 boxes might do that, while still keeping the set as a limited release.

[DrDeal]

Dave,

   Thanks for the info.  Looking forward to another trip back to the late 70's.
The time of pull tabs on soda cans and glass jars of Gatoraid.. Bring it on!!
OS is the best time machine I have access to.

DrDeal

[Dr Popper]

I think they'd like to have some stock around longer than Old School 1 lasted.  Bumping it up from 3,650 to 4,000 boxes might do that, while still keeping the set as a limited release.

Yup, and it also means a little more profit on the project for Topps.  More profit = more success which = more future series!

[Playbug]

Thought I'd start this up since the first image will be available on Friday. Unfortunately there will not be a flyer ready for the show in Philly but there will be a card. When the flyer is ready I will contact people through the mailing list and people can also get the card with it.

If you're not on my mailing list just PM me your email.

Great news Dave. I feel like VH1 when I say, I love the '70's !

Looking forward to the flyer and card. Not gonna be able to make the Philly show so I hope you got my E-mail! 

[Plan 9]

Totally agree. I liked the more limited feel to OLDS release.  I sure hope this doesn't turn out to be ANS2 where they over printed. That would really hurt the series and turn off collectors. I thought OLDS was just right. Topps will soon find out.

Yeah, collectors hate large print runs. That's why the original stickers from the 70's never sold. Look at the massive failure of the ANS. It's only lasted 7 years now. 

I don't recall caring about the sizes of print runs in the 70's-80's. I just wanted them out there and the more the better. I like a few limited items but not the whole darn print run. Not unless I plan to sell them for gas money in 40 years.

[BumChex]

Yeah, collectors hate large print runs. That's why the original stickers from the 70's never sold. Look at the massive failure of the ANS. It's only lasted 7 years now. 

I don't recall caring about the sizes of print runs in the 70's-80's. I just wanted them out there and the more the better. I like a few limited items but not the whole darn print run. Not unless I plan to sell them for gas money in 40 years.

I'm sure Topps has done well. I just meant look at ANS series 2 & 3. Topps printed way too many and now there really is no value in those series from a resell collectable value. It's similar with OS series 4-9, especially series 5-8, most wacky collectors won't even bother building extras of those series to resell because they are way too common. It's sad but true. Ironically those are the series that are probably the most dear to the wacky collectors hearts because that's when most started to collect as kids.

[wackyone]

I'm sure Topps has done well. I just meant look at ANS series 2 & 3. Topps printed way too many and now there really is no value in those series from a resell collectable value. It's similar with OS series 4-9, especially series 5-8, most wacky collectors won't even bother building extras of those series to resell because they are way too common. It's sad but true. Ironically those are the series that are probably the most dear to the wacky collectors hearts because that's when most started to collect as kids.

yep,,even look at OLDS1 now,,,for a stated run of 3650,,{which i still don't believe},,you can't give sets away on e-bay
the chase items destoyed any value in the sets,,i said it b4 but to may people are in denial about this and it all makes me sick

and another binder???..jesus i need another binder with only 5 pages in it,lets fill one 1st

[JasonLiebig]

Yeah, collectors hate large print runs. That's why the original stickers from the 70's never sold. Look at the massive failure of the ANS. It's only lasted 7 years now. 

I don't recall caring about the sizes of print runs in the 70's-80's. I just wanted them out there and the more the better. I like a few limited items but not the whole darn print run. Not unless I plan to sell them for gas money in 40 years.

Yeah, this is a collector-focused specialty nostalgia release in 2010, sold directly to consumers.  The factors that go into making it a success certainly cross over with what made the stickers of the 70's and 80's work, but there are other important factors that are unique to Old School.  Low print runs is one that was brought up many times by Dave Gross himself when introducing the Old School concept. 

I saw collectors get so caught up in their sketch card enthusiasm, that it seemed to overshadow the core stickers in the Old School release.  I hope this hasn't spilled over into the strategy and planning for the future of the series.   If the thinking is to increase the print runs, based on the amount of boxes people will buy based on the sketches - that could go badly. 

That said, I have a lot of faith in the team behind Old School, and their ability to balance the many issues at play here.   

[JasonLiebig]

yep,,even look at OLDS1 now,,,for a stated run of 3650,,{which i still don't believe},,you can't give sets away on e-bay
the chase items destoyed any value in the sets,,i said it b4 but to may people are in denial about this and it all makes me sick

and another binder???..jesus i need another binder with only 5 pages in it,lets fill one 1st

Yeah, this is the kind of thing I worry about. 

On a certain level, I get that the base sets are only going to sell for what they are right now, because the inserts take the higher stage at first blush. 

I do think that if print runs remain low, and we do get to an Old School series 7 or higher, the base sets will slowly retake the focus, and the sketches will sort of fall by the wayside.  I say this because I truly believe new collectors will derive far more pleasure from putting together sets of all of the awesome stickers, rather than trying to collect old sketch cards. 

[slamjim]

Dave, if you can confirm great but if you cannot it is understood why. Is the plan for all the Old School Series to have the 3 cards per pack with the almost certainty of a set + per box. As far as Old School Two, is there going to be 5x7's? These two factors will determine how many boxes I may purchase, all the sketch's and such are just added bonuses for me.

You will know the answers to these questions when the flyer comes out which will be before the pre-sale so you will have plenty of time to decide what you may like to purchase so no worries.

[slamjim]

So you are saying Old School series 2 will be out after Thanksgiving but before Christmas?   LOL!  Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Actually, that is what I heard today! After last time though I will not make a promise!

[slamjim]

yep,,even look at OLDS1 now,,,for a stated run of 3650,,{which i still don't believe},,you can't give sets away on e-bay
the chase items destoyed any value in the sets,,i said it b4 but to may people are in denial about this and it all makes me sick

and another binder???..jesus i need another binder with only 5 pages in it,lets fill one 1st

It was 3650 plus around 25-50 extras they have to make for damage protection which ended up going to Topps executives when the run sold out.

I like the idea of a different binder for each series. I hope they do another wax wrapper. I think they will. Plus that 1st series binder might be getting some more use a little after the release of OLDS2 anyway.

[slamjim]

Since many people are talking about the print run and all that I'll make one post for everyone rather than clog this all up with responding to each person.

The print run increased for a few reasons. The first is it sold out way too quickly. Topps told me before they put the first one on sale they hoped it would last at least through the summer and maybe to the end of the year. The product will eventually sell out even at a higher print run and having product in the store actually helps sell other things. If someone comes in to pick up OLDS maybe they will then grab a postcard set and then an ANS box. Then they get better shipping rates, etc. There are also people coming into collecting all the time and if the product has a SOLD OUT under it then that person may go away and never come back. Topps does not mind having more than they can sell for awhile.

The second thing is with all the delays, screw-ups, extra posters given out and all that other craziness from the first series they went waaaay over the projected budget. Having some additional boxes will take the sting out of any mistakes and is what will allow some kind of pre-sale again.

Third, the budget will be higher this time due to some cool additions so more boxes, again, will help offset that.

We are not talking ANS numbers (which are like 100,000 boxes or something). It's going to be at or below 5000. We put our foot down at that number.

As for the chase cards versus the actual cards I agree that it's a bummer that the chase stuff rules the day but that seems to be the nature of the beast in all card collecting from baseball to Star Wars to Wackys. 

[wackyone]

I like the idea of a different binder for each series. I hope they do another wax wrapper. I think they will. Plus that 1st series binder might be getting some more use a little after the release of OLDS2 anyway.

why would my 1st binder be getting more use after 2 comes out??...now i'm stumped

don't get me wrong i love all the stuff but if it's all in the tradition of Old School then we don't need anything extra.
the wrapper idea is cool again i guess,,any thoughts on a card stock change? I really would like to see,,and feel a different stock
i can't put my finger on it but the 1st series paper just feels wrong,and maybe slightly more gloss would be nice
for example,my 16th cards have a nicer overall look and then the new ones.

[Duznt]

I like the idea of a different binder for each series. I hope they do another wax wrapper. I think they will. Plus that 1st series binder might be getting some more use a little after the release of OLDS2 anyway.

I hope the price will be similar to (or less than) the ANS7 binder.

[JasonLiebig]

Thanks for the info, Dave.

As has been the case, it sounds like you are, indeed, balancing the various needs on all sides well.  I see the reasoning behind Topps' desire to keep the product in their store.  

I still worry about having a limited edition collector product that is still available a year after its release, because it can damper a certain kind of collector enthusiasm.  Let me explain:

Though I was against the move at the time, right before I left Marvel (2000-2001), they were using a strategy to stop second-printing, or over-printing big issues of the books, and rather let them be in-demand if they sold out quickly.  It created buzz for the comics themselves (they gained secondary market value), but also reinvigorated an aspect of the hobby itself.  

Before that, the logic had always been to keep the stories available for people to read, and that quick second prints, or overprinting to meet the inevitable under-ordering by retailers or unanticipated demand, was a good thing.  On a certain level it was, but when retailers took it for granted - and no books gained that secondary buzz - that was bad.  Similarly, the idea that comics were collectible again, and some issues were "special" did, I think, help the hobby.

With this in mind, and with Topps' desire to keep the product in their store - I hope that you guys can commit to a hard number that won't be broken, be it 5,000 boxes or whatever.  Because if 5,000 boxes sells out "too soon", I worry that someone would simply want to push the bar ever higher, to satisfy that singular aspect (i.e., keeping the product in the store) of this rather wonderful Olds recipe, ignoring all the other aspects that make Old School fun and compelling for collectors.

[crackedjerk]

When the flyer is ready I will contact people through the mailing list and people can also get the card with it.

If you're not on my mailing list just PM me your email.

Woo Hoo!  Thanks, Dave.  Glad to hear things are coming along.  Thanks for passing along both the info and goodies!

[slamjim]

why would my 1st binder be getting more use after 2 comes out??...now i'm stumped

That was intentional

don't get me wrong i love all the stuff but if it's all in the tradition of Old School then we don't need anything extra.
the wrapper idea is cool again i guess,,any thoughts on a card stock change? I really would like to see,,and feel a different stock
i can't put my finger on it but the 1st series paper just feels wrong,and maybe slightly more gloss would be nice
for example,my 16th cards have a nicer overall look and then the new ones.

Maybe...

[slamjim]

Thanks for the info, Dave.

As has been the case, it sounds like you are, indeed, balancing the various needs on all sides well.  I see the reasoning behind Topps' desire to keep the product in their store.  

I still worry about having a limited edition collector product that is still available a year after its release, because it can damper a certain kind of collector enthusiasm.  Let me explain:

Though I was against the move at the time, right before I left Marvel (2000-2001), they were using a strategy to stop second-printing, or over-printing big issues of the books, and rather let them be in-demand if they sold out quickly.  It created buzz for the comics themselves (they gained secondary market value), but also reinvigorated an aspect of the hobby itself.  

Before that, the logic had always been to keep the stories available for people to read, and that quick second prints, or overprinting to meet the inevitable under-ordering by retailers or unanticipated demand, was a good thing.  On a certain level it was, but when retailers took it for granted - and no books gained that secondary buzz - that was bad.  Similarly, the idea that comics were collectible again, and some issues were "special" did, I think, help the hobby.

With this in mind, and with Topps' desire to keep the product in their store - I hope that you guys can commit to a hard number that won't be broken, be it 5,000 boxes or whatever.  Because if 5,000 boxes sells out "too soon", I worry that someone would simply want to push the bar ever higher, to satisfy that singular aspect (i.e., keeping the product in the store) of this rather wonderful Olds recipe, ignoring all the other aspects that make Old School fun and compelling for collectors.

I see the point about having the series sitting around for a year but when people find out what will be in this series I think it will sell out again in a decent time frame (maybe not two months but it should sell out). Topps may want to increase the box count again but Mike and I will not let it go over 5000 ever or we would not be able to do sketch cards in each box. That's pretty much the sky limit. They are already aware of this. We pointed out it's just better anyway to get a new series out faster than over produce one. They are already committed to series 3 &4 for next year.

Also, I'd like to think we have been careful in thinking through every step but the truth is no matter what we work out some people will like it and some won't. People collect it for different reasons so I expect every change we made will result in equal amounts positive and negative comments.