World Of Wackies...

[Jean Nutty]

Quoting Jay,
IF people were to actually think from themselves and do a bit of digging on their own, they would find HUNDREDS of websites that have the SAME EXACT IMAGES that are on Greg's site, NO mention of where the images came from, and SOME of the sites are DIRECTLY COMPETING with Greg's site by selling stuff.

I’m puzzled that you say this over and over. If a million people are using Greg's images to create websites, that doesn't make it right - regardless of the law.
What do you say to the policeman who pulls you over for speeding? Look over there?

Quoting Jay,
I have had quite a few people offer me scans from the OS but I've told them 'thanks, but lets hold off for now' I have much bigger plans for W.O.W. and not having any of the OS on the site will not make one bit of difference.

And people call me Nutty!

[bandaches]

First of all, I posted on Greg's forum when the suggestion of Brad's forum was originally made that I was against it. Greg basically transferred the reins of the public forum to Brad, that's nothing like what happened with Tom's forum.
The situation is not analogous to Tom's forum anyway, since there are not really two competing forums at the moment. 99% of forum activity has moved here, so there really isn't any division of information. I don't see any public gnashing of teeth over the move, on the contrary almost everyone seems completely fine with it.

First, you're absolutely wrong, I like Tom personally quite a bit. I have hung out with him many times enjoyably, I even gave him a Blue Oyster Cult CD one time. There have been posts of his of his over the years the content of which have bothered me deeply, that's the only issue there ever was.

Tom may have had a "justified reason" for starting a new forum in his mind. All I said was that having two sizeable forums running concurrently was not efficient. That's not what is happening here. Greg transferred the public forum to Brad. Why the original forum is still postable I don't really understand. Calling the "backyard BBQ" forum a blackball forum is like complaining that everyone is not allowed to participate in a phone call. It's not intended to be a public forum. As the lack of traffic there demonstrates, that forum appears to be pretty much driven by Greg's participation, anyone can start such a forum and invite or ban anyone they want. If it were me starting such a forum, I would underscore that point by having people apply for membership to the forum, or have it be by invitation only. I do agree that allowing people to register for it without approval makes it seem like a public forum, and makes someone's exclusion seem worse than it really is.

Clearly, your Vincent Bugliosi impression is directed towards badgering that admission out of me, unfortunately that assertion is of no interest to me, so I will continue to ignore it.

greg made it clear his intention was to harm traffic to the old forum by threatening to delink it from his website.  Did you miss this point or are you very conveniently forgetting it?

Brad created a back up plan that would also include many improvements. 

greg reacted to the mention of the backup plan by throwing a temper tantrum. 

greg created his new forum immediately.  greg changed the link on his website to go to a page that showed both his new forum and brad's forum.  Clearly this had the intent and potention to divide the hobby or reduce the "efficiency" as you now so cavelierly describe it. 

It is happenstance that there isn't an equal split of posts and that greg's new forum is mainly dead.  Tom's forum didn't get anywhere close to 50% participation but it is interesting that your perception is otherwise....many felt Tom's forum was a hangout for the small minority of greg haters so your recollecting that there were so many greg haters is rather telling....

Your declaration of Tom's forum not being analogous to current situation isn't based on the facts, the parallels are in fact striking!

[DrSushi]

First, you're absolutely wrong, I like Tom personally quite a bit. I have hung out with him many times enjoyably, I even gave him a Blue Oyster Cult CD one time.

Giving someone a BOC CD is a sign of affection? 

I'm actually a BOC fan myself, so I'm just kidding.


Anyone know how to add an umlaut?

[View Monster]

Anyone know how to add an umlaut?

Here's my cheat sheet 

http://www.nouilles.info/keyboard_shortcuts.html

[Plan 9]

Greg's not even here and you're still stirring arguments about him. The issue here is the thief within our midst. Not Greg, not Tom and not PDQBlues. I for one don't want to bother Jay anymore. But I wouldn't trust the guy unless he can bring himself to admit he was wrong for swiping images. You call the removal of Greg's images an indirect admission but for all we know he was worried about getting sued. If any of us knew they guy then someone could vouch for him. Since that's not the case I have to doubt his honesty.

[wackyman]

Ok, First I want to to apologize for how long this post is going to be, BUT IF you really want to take a few moments and try to understand why I will not ever apologize to Greg I implore you to carefully read this entire post, let it soak it a little bit, and then ask yourself am I right or wrong to not apologize to Greg.  I just really want this to be done and over with so we can all move on

The following  is a timeline of the drama train wreak in order with some posts omitted, mostly it is just posts from Greg and myself, with a few of your own posts thrown in where you reminded Greg that what he asked for was done, so this should all drop. each quote will take you directly to the thread and post it came from if you click it,  so everyone can see I'm not taking anything out of context, or changing anyone's words.

In some cases I've shortened a quote to keep this post smaller,     so here we go....

These came from the original W.O.W. announcement thread, which has now been split and moved and renamed "Debate on intellectual property and the web" I start with the first post Greg makes in the thread once he has seen the W.O.W. website

I'm stunned people would sit back and watch somebody hijack content like that and not say anything, not one peep.  Could anything be more glaring?  Do you like people who steal others work like that?  It's true, this really is the forum of dipshits, there's no integrity left in this hobby is there?

We skip ahead to when I woke up and found the post from Paul Maul on the thread "[W.O.W.] 1967 - 2010 Wacky Packages Series Are Online!"  asking where the images had come from, I made my reply and at that time I was not even aware of the other drama unfolding in this thread,  after I made my initial reply and found this thread and read all of the drama unfolding, the following was my FIRST REPLY to Greg on the entire subject

wow, decided to sleep for 6 hours and look what I miss lol.....  instead of writing itall over again, go to the "[W.O.W.] 1967 - 2010 Wacky Packages Series Are Online!" thread to read my long reply about the content.


BUT, I will  add this here..

Greg, you did indeed put a lot of work into building your site, no one will argue with that, and at the time you created it it would take a long long time to assemble it all.

Now, years later ALL of the images on your website, and every other website for that matter is all over the internet via Google images, Bing, Archive.org etc etc it takes but a few days of searching google to amass the sheer amount of content that you have on your site.

Did I 'steal' your site NO, not one bit, did I take images from your site YES, do YOU own those images NO, Topps owns those images The only real people  that can threaten me with any legal actions would be Topps,

Greg... your not Topps

But you go right ahead and do whatever  you think you need to do, BUT I'd be careful as I said ONLY TOPPS has the power of legal action to remove their content from a website, and IF they force one site to go down, then......  well I think you know what could happen next.

As I mentioned in the other thread  I'm  in the process of swapping out the images from your site from the OS series,  I don't like the drop shadow effect on the cards and so those  will be off the W.O.W. site shortly.

I will also be filling many of the 'holes' you have on your site, and if you want feel free to use those images to fill those holes, hell I'll even zip them up and upload them to you if you'd like.

Anyway,   this was bound to happen even if I did not have photos from your site on W.O.W it would be some other reason you had a problem with the site, just from what I've heard I was told to expect it, and those people were right.

I'm NOT going to fight with you about this,

If you want to fight you will loose as the laws are on my side (as well as anyone else who wants to copy what I've put up lol)

However if you'd like to work together and share info between our sites to better  help grow the hobby I won't shut you out, I will gladly share anything I put up that you don't have.

-Jay-

now, I could really just end this post right there,   my FIRST response to Greg, included my recognizing the work he put in, as well as me saying that I will be taking down his images as I did not like the drop shadows AND that I would be willing to work together with Greg, AND share the images I had that he did not have

Please stop and re-read that last paragraph, this WAS my attempt to a acknowledge what I did might be 'ethically wrong' but not legally wrong, acknowledge his work and try to work together, this was my attempt to apologize to Greg

Instead of Greg acting like an adult and accepting my words and moving on, this was his first reply to my post, please remember my reply to Greg where I do in fact acknowledge his hard work and offer to work together and that his images will be removed while reading Greg's reply

Wrong, one cannot copy somebody's work even if it's not for profit, I don't know who's advising you but if that's your legal advice you're in big trouble, you need a real lawyer, and trust me you will need one, very soon.  If you run a store you can show pictures of the things you are selling, that's not a copyright violation.  Outside that, Topps has a long precedent of allowing fan sites and my site is a fan site, and their site even has a link to it.  While my store is no different from anybody else's store on the wackymall.  Furthermore what you have done is so lame, obviously nobody thinks it's cool.  You take the fact that I sell wackys and that I have become disgruntled as a green light to kick me when I'm down, steal my site, and do it without credit or so much as a thank you?  People who plagiarize and trying to take credit for other people's work are generally considered disgraceful losers in any social circle.  But you think this is going to make you popular outside of the ernie/gross ilk who have their own axes to grind?  The public will obviously see this for what it is.  As for you, we might have to let a jury decide where the law lies if you don't come to your senses.  I'll have my lawyer send you a formal letter this week, Monday if  possible.  Does your administrative contact know you've involved him in hosting unauthorized stolen materials?

 Smith, Jason  jason@jjwebworks.com
      JJ Webworks
      134 W. 2nd street  Apt D
      gaylord, Michigan 49735
      United States
      (989) 390-8075

So, After I acknowledge his hard work, told him the images would be coming down AND offered to work with him, he continues to threaten me AND felt the need to post my home address on a public forum, I really don't care about the home address as it is 100% public info and I even corrected the address as the one he posted was my old  address.

But the fact remains, he said at first "do this or else"  and offer to "do this" and he keeps it going, poking and prodding and trying to escalate the issue for whatever reason, my biggest issues with his first reply back to me is the stuff I bolded,  This is the point where he turns a molehill into a mountain..  he claims I 'stole his entire site' when I only had the fronts of the OS cards, boxes and packs,  no card backs, no variants, not his side by sides etc etc, only a base representation  of 1967 - 1991 from  Greg's site.

ALL of the ANS FB and OLDS I obtained myself either from my own scanning, or in the case of Olds they were given to me,  I stated this fact in the other thread, and in this thread (the moved thread) But Greg tried to claim that EVERY SINGLE IMAGE on W.O.W. was 'stolen from him'

Next Greg brings Brad into all of this with the following post

I didn't realize it was a competition Brad, well it's not to me but you can behave however immaturely you want.  I have more important things to do like deal with plagiarizers and other serious things.  Now that I know this is a competition to you, I understand better why you instigated this timely power play.  Well bro, you can't beat somebody who doesn't care, but have fun with whatever delusions you want to have about it.

note the bolded stuff, Greg has better things to do then deal with Plagiarizers (I never claimed the images from Greg's site were mine) and also note the 'power play' remark,

there was never a power play on my part and Brad did not even know about W.O.W. until AFTER he started this forum, and it was at that time that I contacted Brad and offered my help with this forum if he needed it, as well as jointly promote the two sites

Now, as per Greg's own words he has better things to do,  but he just keeps going, here we have his reply to Jason

You just keep making stuff up as you go along don't you Jason?  Well here in the real world I actually strongly encourage other wacky sites, I have a link to Rusty and I think his site is amazing.  If this dipshit had made a legitimate site with something new to add that I haven't been able to cover then I would be thrilled and would love to add a link.  But if he comes on here obviously with a chip on his shoulder and thinking he's going to just steal my work, then he's nothing more than an ass and he will be treated accordingly.  If you can't see the difference then maybe you aren't so prescient after all.  Your ability to weave reality around you is almost as creepy as ernie's.

I did in fact have a legitimate site with something new (old school) and how in the world did my initial reply to Greg show I had a 'chip on  my shoulder' or that I was 'kicking him when he was down' (as he said in the prior posts)  Next Greg is reminded what I said in the first place by Ernie

greg,
Last I checked Jay immediately stated it was your stuff.  Why do you keep suggesting he is denying it?  He proposed to clean up images(you do have a bunch of crappy ones) and share them back with you but I doubt you will take him up on it as it is more fun for you to fight first and ask questions later as you came here and called us all dipshits before you even contacted Jay about his WOW site.

Next Greg attacks me again with 100% false accusations, oddly enough his exact claim of "me removing the shadows on ANS & FB" is EXACTLY what I knew he would try and say, and I even typed that in my reply to him, (I was writing that exact reply when Greg posted this)

I just took a closer look and he has not just used my box scans, but EVERY sticker scan is also mine, now we're talking stealing tens of thousands of hours of work, he literally went in and cut out the shadows to make them look like he didn't lift them but if you look closely you can see they are all the same.  I thought it was strange the one series he didn't have was the 1986 album and that's the one series I don't have up too.  He couldn't do anything himself, not even the series that costs $10 on ebay, how incredibly lame and pathetic.  You guys should be eating this guy for lunch for what he's done here, it's one of the most outrageous violations of somebody else's hard work that it's almost unbelievable.  EVERY picture I can find on that site appears to be lifted.  The attack mob would turn anybody to dust who did this to anybody but me.  So let's see if people can do the right thing here.

This was the reply I was typing while Greg posted the above

I MAY be getting my threads confused, but I find it funny that Greg has not yet even attempted to address the facts I have stated about which images are which, and more importantly HOW he could even PROVE what images are 'his' as he claims.  I openly admitted prior to Greg coming here and calling all of us 'dipshits' that....

(1) I DID use images from Greg's site for ALL BOXES, PACKS, and some checklists, and  MOST of the OS galleries are from Greg's site.

(2) I AM in the process of replacing the images from Greg's site as I do not feel I need to have "doctored images" on the W.O.W site.

(3) I am in EVERY aspect of the law able to do what I did, no matter what anyone wants to think or believe taking images to create a 'fan' or 'info' site is not against any laws UNLESS TOPPS THEMSELVES HAS AN ISSUE WITH IT.

Greg you claim i have NOTHING on my site that you do not have, so do me a favor, point me to your Old School Sketch section, and your Old School  series section,  Point me to your 86 series (that is being scanned and uploaded now) do you recall what you said to me on the phone about the 86 series?

(Paraphrased) "I MIGHT get it up by the end  of the year, IF I have time"


I'm shutting the site down for now, NOT because of Greg's empty threats, but because I do not have time to play childish games with childish people, once I remove the images that Greg does not own from the site I will open it back up, and if after that Greg feels the need to attack again then I myself will take legal action for harassment, labial and  possibly slander I'd have to send all my data to my lawyers for true clarification.

To the others in this thread, I'm not new at this  stuff, I've owned and operated Internet consulting, marketing companies since 1998, I live, work and play online, I am VERY up to date on ALL the laws that apply to the Internet,  Greg, I AM The ADMIN I only answer to my hosting company that hosts my dedicated boxes (IE my computers that sit in their data offices) I'm no small fry little punk that you can push around.

I'm ending this now as I have much better things to do then watch you kill what you worked so hard to start, now your literally crumbling before everyone's eyes, your bad mouthing the exact people that made your forum popular, you snubbed everyone, you tried to take out Topps, you tried to Attack Old School,  and all the while you had no real effect,  sucks huh?

So... The site is in idle mode, no one can get in, till I'm done removing "your" stuff

and while I'm at it,   it looks like I forgot to update my whois info  so here's my correct info should you choose  to try and waste everyone's time with legal threats:

Smith, Jason  jason@jjwebworks.com
      JJ Webworks
      1825 Melvindale Dr.
      gaylord, Michigan 49735
      United States
(989) 390-8075

just want to make sure your mail gets to me.

-Jay-

.....continued next post

[wackyman]

..... Continued from last post


At this point I was done, I shut down the site, removed all the images (or so I thought) and was NOT going to feed into the fight anymore, I had been upfront and honest from the start of all of this, I gave credit to Greg for his hard work offered to take down the images, took down the images AND offered to share stuff he did not have, all of this is what I did, each step of the way,  and guess what?  it was the right thing to do.  The issue really should have been over at this point,  the site was shut down,  credit was given, and a partnership was even offered, but instead Greg replied with this....

Wrong, brazen, and very cocky.  Those box pictures are my personal works of art and you're in gross violation of the copyright law and Topps cannot come to your rescue.  The funny thing is not that many years ago it wouldn't have been a copyright violation but the laws have massively changed and now it is a violation, you should read the latest copyright law, this has nothing to do with Topps.  You need a real lawyer dude, I suggest you start looking for one this weekend.

I wanted to let everything go, but I had to reply to that post...

NONE of the ANS stuff is yours EXCEPT for the boxes and pack photos

And as I said in my last post the 86 series is being scanned as I type this.

The funny thing is your doing EXACTLY what I knew you would do to me in regards to the stuff that DID NOT COME FROM YOUR WEBSITE

Is  this is theonly convaluted way you can think of to try and prevent ANYONE from  making  a similar site to yours,  just claim ALL WACKY IMAGES ARE YOURS and pray that people are scared of you for some reason and they just shut down and  go away

Sorry Teach, but in the real world it don't work that way, and once again show me your extensive Old School stuff on your site, since  you keep saying over and over I have NOTHING your site doesn't have.
(shortened)

Jason reminded Greg that what he wanted done has been done

Hey Greg.  Looks like you can calm down.  Jay has closed the site and will be removing the offending images, and bringing it back when he's done with that work.    So please, stop insulting and attacking - that's best left in your backyard, I think.   When the site comes back, even without your images, I hope you don't have reason to attack again. 

So, in the strictest sense, he's making efforts to correct the wrong.  You should applaud that.

Greg replied to me with....

So what you're saying is you stole from me until you get around to replacing what you stole?  Sorry asshole but the world doesn't work that way.  It will take you years to rescan all those images, and you'll never get the box pictures because obviously that kind of picture is way above your head.  This is not something you are doing for the benefit of the community like I did, this is a bogus power play, a disgraceful ego trip.  Removing my shadows took a lot of time I'm sure, time you could have spent doing legitimate work, so nobody should be fooled by your thinly veiled bullshit.  But regardless, you don't have years to fix your page, you have 24 hours.  You have been warned.  And your posts are great fodder for the trial where you are saying outright what you stole and that you did it intentionally.  If you had a lawyer he'd be telling you to keep your gaping mouth shut right now. 

So, I did everything asked of me, gave credit, offer to share and work together and shut down the site and that is Greg's reply to me, still threatening a fake lawsuit, more 'power play' claims, etc etc, really he was only trying to goad me to keep going, which of course I did,  I was behind by about 3 or 4 posts by this time, so before I could reply to this post I had to first reply to his "wrong, brazen and very cocky" post

Show me how I am Wrong, Brazen and very cocky,

your argument is moot at this point anyway the site is down, the images from your site are being removed, as I said I do not have the time to play childish games with someone being childish,  this is the exact reason I never came to you about this project in the first place,  you seem to have skipped over that so far all day....

The ENTIRE W.O.W. project  started as a FREE revamp for YOUR WEBSITE, a way for me to THANK YOU for what you did for this hobby, but AFTER we spoke on the phone I decided that the last thing I should do is help feed your ego, and I took the almost 10 months of work I did and scrapped the entire project,  then just about a month or so ago I decided that instead of just killing the entire project that I should pick it back up and do it myself, without the lording and ego tripping.
(shortened)

Greg's next post was...

There's no way you could possibly justify what you did, so give up on trying to hold your head high and ride around on some kind of high horse.  I don't own any wacky images but I do own the scans on my site and you have stolen a thousand of them outright and spent considerable time cutting out the shadows.  If you want to fill in holes like blow school then I applaud that, I've been begging others to get involved because cataloging the entire wacky universe was too big a job for one person or even two, but nobody really wanted to help, instead almost everybody's energy went into fighting on the forum and clawing for for lowball opportunities, while I spent most of my time doing something productive for the hobby.

But the way to do this in a sociably acceptable way is to join the gang and cooperate and make friends, not to dive in and steal stuff and kick people who are down and try to divide people and cause havoc.  That's idiotic that you approached this that way and I think everybody can see what kind of person you must be.  I have laid myself down for this hobby and I know the majority of people recognize that, which has been your major miscalculation here.

Note the bolded,  when did I kick anyone, divide people or cause havoc? I did in fact  join the gang, cooperate and made friends, in case anyone missed it, or forgot or just plain did not know I was "Teronsuke" on Greg's boards,

 I posted quite often from the time I stopped lurking for over a year and finally registered and got involved, I did the exact opposite of what Greg claimed I did,  W.O.W. was online since Jan, when did any of you learn of the site? not before this forum was opened, not the day it opened, there was never any power play, or kicking when down,  the registration date of W.O.W. is the only proof I need of my intentions JANUARY 2010, this board, and the exodus of Greg's board was in MARCH,

Next Sue Mee said to Greg...

He removed the material you're crying about.  Go away.  It won't take years to rescan everything.  It may take you "tens of hours" to photoshop the boxes, but other people may be faster at getting stuff done.

and Greg's direct reply to Sue Mee was

All I can say is it must truly suck to be as miserable as you.  What you really mean is "thank you very much for years of incredible service to this hobby, work that I'm so jealous of that I will act like a six year old".  Well, he did the smart thing to remove it.  Nobody can do that stuff fast unless they do hack work or steal it.  My work is super high quality and that's why it's time-consuming, particularly my full box scans, those took years and there is no way he (you?) can reproduce probably even one of them without stealing something from somebody, and most likely me.  I hope somebody steals thousands of hours of your work one day and then insults you and makes you cry.  Well the world is full of assholes like you, it takes a lot of strength to navigate around the assholes and still get the most out of life, but I've certainly had plenty of practice in this hobby which attracts 98% super cool people and a bunch of flaming assholes who absolutely never grew up.

I then replied to Greg about his "high horse" post...

I don't need to play justification  theater, I've not hidden ANYTHING I have no motives, agendas  other then what I have stated publicly and in private with individuals.

I want to give you a bit of free advice (not that you'd take it from me)

When a new person calls your hotline, you NEVER know who they MIGHT be, or what they could have to help you make your life easier, so it's a good idea to NOT let their first impression of you be an angry bitter person who only talks negative about the hobby, the members of their site and so on and so forth.

that's not helping the hobby,    that's not laying down yourself for the hobby,  in fact I really don't know what that is.

I've hidden nothing about myself or the site I'm building,  I even went as far to create a new name so I would NOT be using my normal forum name I use on most boards, I don't need to be worshiped, and really NO ONE should want or need that.

but keep on flaming me, post by post your just showing how you really truly are and your true feelings about the hobby today

and for last time

THE ANS CARD SCANS ARE NOT FROM YOUR SITE

But sadly neither of us can prove it one way or the other  and you know this, and I'm  thinking you love that fact.

-Jay-

Greg replied with...

No amount of your rationalization will equate our behavior here because we've gotten to this discussion via incredibly different paths.  I'm somebody who did my own work and gave myself freely to the hobby for 12 years and know half the people here personally, a hundred or so of them even spent time in my house.  While who are you?  You simply came here from nowhere, stole my work and tried to call it your own, and dissed me instead of being cool and showing respect for what I've done, instead of starting this venture maturely like any reasonable person would, you come rampaging in half cocked, stealing content and dissing a long standing member of the community, making yourself look like a total fool with how you've done this.  Of course all the anti-greg dipshits will be duly impressed, but they're easy to impress, it doesn't matter what names you call me ernie and gary and the other morons will get in line.  That means jack bro.  There's no equating us, I didn't do the disgraceful acts you did and I never would, I reacted to it, and you reacted to me reacting to what you did.  Only the fools who want to believe you have a point will believe it, everybody else can see you being a dick, just one more in a parade of them that have come through this hobby over the years. 

Again, just look over his bolded text, and remember all I have already done,  gave credit, took images down, offered to share images, and offered to work together with him, but to Greg that all meant what I bolded above.

After this  Greg  made another reply  to one of my posts, and  it is my last  quote/copy/paste

You haven't walked in my shoes for one second, you don't know me and have barely a clue as to the experiences I've had.  One thing is clear and that is that your stated MO is just a smokescreen for your true motivations, whatever they may be, but one thing is for sure is that honesty and integrity are not high on your priority list.  If you had a shred of integrity you'd take a second to realize that I've done my best in the face of incredible obstacles faced by mindless corporations and bloated egos.  That's a fact, that's a sad fact but it's not my fault and if you come in here expecting me to bend over and take it up the ass, well, as I said, who the hell are you?  Just another self-righteous blowhard insensitive asshole dipshit power player.  The hobby will eventually see you for what you are because that kind of incredibly antisocial behavior will come back to roost, you have to realize the allegiance of a troupe who are only happy because you're fighting with me is a group with very thin loyalty.  Your first step in this hobby was a huge misstep.  I encourage you to rethink everything and being the gracious person I am I might give you a second chance to be cool and hopefully do something productive. 

It was with that last post that I gave up, and due to that post I will NEVER AGAIN apologize to him, I already made attempts to make amends for what I did, I complied, I offered to share and I offered a partnership, and all Greg did was kept attacking me, and making the issue bigger then it ever had to be.

Now some of you think that I should apologize to Greg for what I did,  and others want to know if I THINK I did anything wrong, I can only assume these questions are because of how Greg blew all of this out of proportion, and skewed the real facts of the entire ordeal,  I was open and honest about where the images came from BEFORE GREG CAME  HERE,  and once Greg came here I was open  and honest again, I gave him credit, I took down the images, I offered to share what he did not have and I even offered we work together, seriously did I NOT DO THE RIGHT THING ALREADY?

I will not go out of my way to kiss this guy's ass after what he did to me,  if anyone owes someone an apology it's Greg to me, and that is why I will never say to Greg I'm sorry, I have nothing to be sorry for, I did everything the right, respectful way, I approached the situation as an adult and Greg spit at me, I offered my help and he attacked me,  I took down the images as he wanted (to end it all) and he kept attacking me, I offered to share images he did not have he  attacked  me, I gave him credit for all his hard work he attacked me.

So,  to all of you who think I should be sorry for what I did,  what exactly did I really do? I already attempted to make amends when this whole thing started, and I was attacked over and over again,  why should I do it again?

This is now 100% over for me, I do NOT want to respond to anything more in this thread, If I have to I will lol, but please let's just let this go, it was honestly done and over after my first reply to Greg when I gave him credit, told him I would remove the images, offered to share, and work together, why the hell this became an 18 page train wreak is beyond me, but It's  done, it's over let's just move the hell on!

-Jay-

[bandaches]

Jay, just simply state that what you did was ethically wrong.  Don't do it with 4000 quotes.  The folks who don't want to believe greg complicated matters with temper tantrum and his overzealous approach aren't going to have their minds changed.

[bandaches]

Greg's not even here and you're still stirring arguments about him. The issue here is the thief within our midst. Not Greg, not Tom and not PDQBlues. I for one don't want to bother Jay anymore. But I wouldn't trust the guy unless he can bring himself to admit he was wrong for swiping images. You call the removal of Greg's images an indirect admission but for all we know he was worried about getting sued. If any of us knew they guy then someone could vouch for him. Since that's not the case I have to doubt his honesty.

Where greg resides is irrelevant.  He has set up an environment where he can go whereever he pleases, attack anyone he wants and then run back into a hideaway when he can't take the heat.

I have already agreed with you that Jay should admit in a simple clear sentence that what he did was ethically wrong per the standards set in this hobby.   

Be clear that greg's handling of the situation made it worse and if some people are going to come here presenting a greg biased view of things denying that greg has any culpability for acting improperly in attacking everyone here, his subsequent further dividing the forum discussions and his continued allegations of everyone else being petty but him, then there will be rebuttals, get over it.

[wackyman]

Jay, just simply state that what you did was ethically wrong.  Don't do it with 4000 quotes.  The folks who don't want to believe greg complicated matters with temper tantrum and his overzealous approach aren't going to have their minds changed.

my FIRST response to Greg, included my recognizing the work he put in, as well as me saying that I will be taking down his images as I did not like the drop shadows AND that I would be willing to work together with Greg, AND share the images I had that he did not have

Please stop and re-read that last paragraph, this WAS my attempt to a acknowledge what I did might be 'ethically wrong' but not legally wrong, acknowledge his work and try to work together, this was my attempt to apologize to Greg

[bandaches]

my FIRST response to Greg, included my recognizing the work he put in, as well as me saying that I will be taking down his images as I did not like the drop shadows AND that I would be willing to work together with Greg, AND share the images I had that he did not have

Please stop and re-read that last paragraph, this WAS my attempt to a acknowledge what I did might be 'ethically wrong' but not legally wrong, acknowledge his work and try to work together, this was my attempt to apologize to Greg

I will state one last time that you are making people draw conclusions from your posts, the post does NOT explicitly state you believe what you did is ethically wrong.  You have offered a follow up good deed, sharing, cooperation,.....lots of nice things....but not explicitly letting the hobby know you truly recognize that what you is not accepted ethically in this hobby.

Maybe the inference is there but hopefully you realize by now that very few people are getting the inference.  Your admission is coming off continually having a "BUT" attached to it and as soon as "but" is included, all sincerity is out the window,

[wackyman]

I will state one last time that you are making people draw conclusions from your posts, the post does NOT explicitly state you believe what you did is ethically wrong.  You have offered a follow up good deed, sharing, cooperation,.....lots of nice things....but not explicitly letting the hobby know you truly recognize that what you is not accepted ethically in this hobby.

Maybe the inference is there but hopefully you realize by now that very few people are getting the inference.  Your admission is coming off continually having a "BUT" attached to it and as soon as "but" is included, all sincerity is out the window,

Yes and No,  The "But" made all the difference to Greg's 'threats' of legal action,  you can not sue someone for 'moral wrongs' you can however sue for 'legal wrongs'

take that and then re-read my attempt to apologize to Greg,  the 'but' does not make it insincere, it merely and clearly stats what I did was not Legally wrong.

Meanwhile there is a real thief on this board selling pirated t-shirts, admitting it's against the law, and I'm the one being raked over the coals here? If that guy (or girl) don't get double what I got, I might just leave this entire hobby behind, cause it would truly make all of this a cliquey double standard place if that person gets away with what their doing

-Jay-

[bandaches]

Yes and No,  The "But" made all the difference to Greg's 'threats' of legal action,  you can not sue someone for 'moral wrongs' you can however sue for 'legal wrongs'

take that and then re-read my attempt to apologize to Greg,  the 'but' does not make it insincere, it merely and clearly stats what I did was not Legally wrong.

Meanwhile there is a real thief on this board selling pirated t-shirts, admitting it's against the law, and I'm the one being raked over the coals here? If that guy (or girl) don't get double what I got, I might just leave this entire hobby behind, cause it would truly make all of this a cliquey double standard place if that person gets away with what their doing

-Jay-

Newsflash: this hobby is loaded with double standards, you might as well get yourself prepared for it.  The T-shirt thing is going to die a quick death because there is nobody to play the role of victim here and few people here really give a crap about whether someone uses Topps images illegally.  Add to this, the T-shirt guy isn't going to fight tooth and nail with everyone trying to justify his position to be correct, he has already floated away and so will concern from this forum about his activities.

[Plan 9]

I for one don't care if anyone rips off Topps images. That's Topps' concern. Not mine. I do care if someone rips off a hobbyist. I was shocked by what I suspected was a theft of Greg's site before Greg said a word about it. Once the theft was confirmed I spoke up. If I were Jay I wouldn't assume the silent masses condone theft.

[JasonLiebig]

I for one don't care if anyone rips off Topps images. That's Topps' concern. Not mine. I do care if someone rips off a hobbyist. I was shocked by what I suspected was a theft of Greg's site before Greg said a word about it. Once the theft was confirmed I spoke up. If I were Jay I wouldn't assume the silent masses condone theft.

I agree with you regarding the hobbyists, but I also think if someone "rips off Topps images", the hobbyist, if they have anything worth ripping, is next.  So we should be concerned. 

A lot of us spoke up, and we should have.  And then Jay did remove the offending content.  Ripping off hobbyists is not cool.  I don't think it's okay to rip off Topps, either, as they provide the hobby, but it IS their responsibility to deal with it. 

Correct me on the details I'm not getting this next part right:  There were members here (and I believe you were one of them) that cracked cases of Flashbacks, and sold individual boxes from the cases - but only after a bit of searching for golds.  Once certain collation of "golds" were found, they stopped opening boxes.  So the cases were "searched".  I can't recall if this was considered wrong, or unethical, but some could say that the sellers were "ripping off" other hobbyists but not informing them that the boxes came from "searched cases".   

Once this was discussed, it became clear that "next time" adding the info that the boxes came from "searched cases" was important to making it a fair transaction.   Similarly, Jay has stated that he won't use Greg's scans of Topps' copyrighted material "next time".  That seems fair.  I hope he still follows through with it.

[bandaches]

I agree with you regarding the hobbyists, but I also think if someone "rips off Topps images", the hobbyist, if they have anything worth ripping, is next.  So we should be concerned. 

A lot of us spoke up, and we should have.  And then Jay did remove the offending content.  Ripping off hobbyists is not cool.  I don't think it's okay to rip off Topps, either, as they provide the hobby, but it IS their responsibility to deal with it. 

Correct me on the details I'm not getting this next part right:  There were members here (and I believe you were one of them) that cracked cases of Flashbacks, and sold individual boxes from the cases - but only after a bit of searching for golds.  Once certain collation of "golds" were found, they stopped opening boxes.  So the cases were "searched".  I can't recall if this was considered wrong, or unethical, but some could say that the sellers were "ripping off" other hobbyists but not informing them that the boxes came from "searched cases".   

Once this was discussed, it became clear that "next time" adding the info that the boxes came from "searched cases" was important to making it a fair transaction.   Similarly, Jay has stated that he won't use Greg's scans of Topps' copyrighted material "next time".  That seems fair.  I hope he still follows through with it.

...and I believe the case crackers didn't agree to calling out cases or boxes from searched cases until AFTER this was deemed to be unethical by the hobby so for those folks, it wasn't self evident that this was unethical.  I have yet to see a flashback box or case on ebay(or anywhere for that matter) declared it was from a "searched" batch so either the hoards of boxes from searched cases aren't being sold(yeah right) or the policy of declaring the boxes came from search cases isn't being adhered to.  As I said to Jay, he is going to have to grow some thick skin because double standards exist in many places in this hobby and if he is going to allow the fact there are many double standards out there bother him, he is going to be quite bothered.

[Plan 9]

Hey Liebig,
"Next part"? What next part? The next part is where you open old wounds for nothing. Why drudge it up? Why turn your guns on me? What bearing does it have on stealing Greg's website? You want to relive your days from Greg's forum feigning ignorance to get people pissed off? Fine, here's a recap. I was the only one who admitted using a technique to estimate which boxes in a case had golds in them and ignoring the rest. I didn't have a magnetic scanner. I didn't reseal boxes. I just guessed. It was never my plan to sell the boxes I suspected had no golds until I was left with a pile of them. If it had been my plan to use a system from the start I might have had time to realize it would be unfair to anyone who bought the boxes. No doubt I overlooked a few golds and probably a plate or two. I didn't find every gold. I'm not going to do anything like that again because looking back it wasn't fair. I didn't affect the odds of finding a plate but I did affect the odds of finding golds. Not as egregious as stealing a website and maintaining you did nothing wrong. Now I dare you to explain how drudging this up has any bearing at all on what Jay did.

[Plan 9]

...and I believe the case crackers didn't agree to calling out cases or boxes from searched cases until AFTER this was deemed to be unethical by the hobby so for those folks, it wasn't self evident that this was unethical.  I have yet to see a flashback box or case on ebay(or anywhere for that matter) declared it was from a "searched" batch so either the hoards of boxes from searched cases aren't being sold(yeah right) or the policy of declaring the boxes came from search cases isn't being adhered to.  As I said to Jay, he is going to have to grow some thick skin because double standards exist in many places in this hobby and if he is going to allow the fact there are many double standards out there bother him, he is going to be quite bothered.

No double standards here. You're taking a very cynical view. It's one thing to do something wrong that isn't obvious to most people, realize how it's wrong and vowing not to do it again. It's another thing to rip off a guy's site and deliberately squelch out those who try to show them the light. Especially when nobody knows who the hell you are.

[bandaches]

No double standards here. You're taking a very cynical view. It's one thing to do something wrong that isn't obvious to most people, realize how it's wrong and vowing not to do it again. It's another thing to rip off a guy's site and deliberately squelch out those who try to show them the light. Especially when nobody knows who the hell you are.

You are suggesting Jay didn't take down the images that caused the uproar yet there are ZERO examples of sellers of flashback boxes labeling the boxes are being from searched cases so if anything, it seems Jay took more corrective action than the flashback box sellers.  Talk about cynical views....words are cheap, Jay took action.....show me some ACTIONS of the flashback box searchers......

[Plan 9]

All I said was pulling the pics from the website could mean something other than an admission of guilt. Words aren't cheap for Jay or he'd tell us what ever we wanted to hear. So there would be value in his admission.

As for anybody still selling Flashback boxes with low odds, I don't know who they are or where they are. But I would advise against buying single boxes from ebay unless you don't care about gold borders.

[JasonLiebig]

Hey Liebig,
"Next part"? What next part? The next part is where you open old wounds for nothing. Why drudge it up? Why turn your guns on me? What bearing does it have on stealing Greg's website? You want to relive your days from Greg's forum feigning ignorance to get people pissed off? Fine, here's a recap. I was the only one who admitted using a technique to estimate which boxes in a case had golds in them and ignoring the rest. I didn't have a magnetic scanner. I didn't reseal boxes. I just guessed. It was never my plan to sell the boxes I suspected had no golds until I was left with a pile of them. If it had been my plan to use a system from the start I might have had time to realize it would be unfair to anyone who bought the boxes. No doubt I overlooked a few golds and probably a plate or two. I didn't find every gold. I'm not going to do anything like that again because looking back it wasn't fair. I didn't affect the odds of finding a plate but I did affect the odds of finding golds. Not as egregious as stealing a website and maintaining you did nothing wrong. Now I dare you to explain how drudging this up has any bearing at all on what Jay did.

Sorry, Marc, I didn't mean to start a fight at all.  I think the way you dealt with your situation was fair, and I thought Jay taking the images down was fair, with his stated intent to not use them.  The similarity that I drew was that I don't think either one of you considered what you were doing was "wrong" until it was pointed out to you by forum members.   Maybe I don't remember that part clearly.

As I recall (and this is just how I remember it), once it was pointed out to you - you were perfectly willing to see how, in retrospect, you could have done things differently, and would do things differently, if the situation were to ever come back again.  I thought you were reasonable, thoughtful, and straight-up in your response.   

I thought it was relevant because it was a question of perceived ethics, and it involved what could be perceived as "ripping off other hobbyists" and that you didn't have any intent of wrongdoing - which I assumed Jay shared as well.   I didn't even think I was drudging, as you handled it incredibly well and perfectly gracefully.   

Beyond that, though, if Jay is still denying that he ever did anything wrong in using the images, then the similarities end there.   

[Plan 9]

At the time it wasn't easy to admit guilt, face the music and stay cool. Anyway, don't worry about it.

[JasonLiebig]

At the time it wasn't easy to admit guilt, face the music and stay cool. Anyway, don't worry about it.

I never thought it was any kind of dramatic thing, Mark.   It was an honest oversight in a scenario that was, for most of us at least, a new one.  In a way, this is all helping write a new chapter on "trading card" ethics.   Which is actually pretty cool.     

And to PaulMaul's point, perhaps it should drive  companies like Topps and others to develop better ways to make collation of ultra-tough inserts even more difficult to figure out.   

[bandaches]

Yes and No,  The "But" made all the difference to Greg's 'threats' of legal action,  you can not sue someone for 'moral wrongs' you can however sue for 'legal wrongs'

take that and then re-read my attempt to apologize to Greg,  the 'but' does not make it insincere, it merely and clearly stats what I did was not Legally wrong.

Meanwhile there is a real thief on this board selling pirated t-shirts, admitting it's against the law, and I'm the one being raked over the coals here? If that guy (or girl) don't get double what I got, I might just leave this entire hobby behind, cause it would truly make all of this a cliquey double standard place if that person gets away with what their doing

-Jay-

Is WOW progressing or has this been shelved?  I wanted to help you organize the Old School Sketches and update it.

[bandaches]

Yes and No,  The "But" made all the difference to Greg's 'threats' of legal action,  you can not sue someone for 'moral wrongs' you can however sue for 'legal wrongs'

take that and then re-read my attempt to apologize to Greg,  the 'but' does not make it insincere, it merely and clearly stats what I did was not Legally wrong.

Meanwhile there is a real thief on this board selling pirated t-shirts, admitting it's against the law, and I'm the one being raked over the coals here? If that guy (or girl) don't get double what I got, I might just leave this entire hobby behind, cause it would truly make all of this a cliquey double standard place if that person gets away with what their doing

-Jay-

Is it a fair assumption that WOW is dead?

[BustedFinger]

Is it a fair assumption that WOW is dead?

Yeah, I think Brad should consider removing the links.  The site has nothing to do with Wacky Packages now.

[Paul_Maul]

Yeah, I think Brad should consider removing the links.  The site has nothing to do with Wacky Packages now.

Whoa! That must have happened in the last couple of days. I understand Jay was probably put off by all the controversy, but it doesn't say much for his level of dedication if he completely bails that quickly.

[Sunstroke]

That is a shock. I didn't use the site because the layout blew through my screen, and I have a 27" monitor, but that is really shocking he gave up so fast.

[Plan 9]

Whoa! That must have happened in the last couple of days. I understand Jay was probably put off by all the controversy, but it doesn't say much for his level of dedication if he completely bails that quickly.

I'm not surprised in the very least. I smelled the stink from that guy way before the sight went up. It was a subtle aroma. But he went full blown swamp gas after he was called on the site theft. Sleazy come, sleazy go.

[bandaches]

I'm not surprised in the very least. I smelled the stink from that guy way before the sight went up. It was a subtle aroma. But he went full blown swamp gas after he was called on the site theft. Sleazy come, sleazy go.

Agreed.  While worse crimes have been given free passes in this hobby due to personal realtionships, Jay irked me in that he continued to debate the legalities instead of understanding that his deed was uncool. no matter how each of us tried to explain it 

He reminds me of Tom Riccio, tangental association to wacky packs, stepped into it to make a splash and some money and then off he goes.  I believe Jay somehow believed someone would buy WOW, maybe Topps?  In the only phone conversation I had with him, I told him Topps would never buy his website and even if they gave indications of interest, their ability to follow up on something like that is pretty close to nil.

[BumChex]

Yeah, I think Brad should consider removing the links.  The site has nothing to do with Wacky Packages now.

Thanks for pointing this out. I just noticed the link picture was down. I didn't have time to research it. I will remove it now.

[Jean Nutty]

Is it a fair assumption that WOW is dead?

Wow, how quickly the weather can change! The site has nothing to do with Wacky Packages anymore.
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[Dr Popper]

Agreed.  While worse crimes have been given free passes in this hobby due to personal realtionships, Jay irked me in that he continued to debate the legalities instead of understanding that his deed was uncool. no matter how each of us tried to explain it 

He reminds me of Tom Riccio, tangental association to wacky packs, stepped into it to make a splash and some money and then off he goes.  I believe Jay somehow believed someone would buy WOW, maybe Topps?  In the only phone conversation I had with him, I told him Topps would never buy his website and even if they gave indications of interest, their ability to follow up on something like that is pretty close to nil.

That's exactly right, he would only focus on the legal issues and ignored the ethics involved.  What he did was uncool but it he didn't commit murder.  If he just said that he tried to take a shortcut and didn't really recognize what went in to making the images and apologized I think it would have blown over.  Everyone makes judgement errors in life.

[Paul_Maul]

You're right, it would have blown over, but what he's doing with the site now shows he wasn't really interested in creating a site based on original content. The fact that he realized he would be expected to do so most likely caused him to lose interest.

[slamjim]

You're right, it would have blown over, but what he's doing with the site now shows he wasn't really interested in creating a site based on original content. The fact that he realized he would be expected to do so most likely caused him to lose interest.

I think he closed out shop because (based on some of his last posts) that there was hypocrisy to all of the controversy. And he is right to that point. Maybe he is not gone and is just taking a breather.