Knock off posters

[bandaches]

Who made these and when did they come out?

[ToadallyDude]

Weird distribution of titles on this thing.  Tons of stellar 1-4 series stuff... and Hacks?  Hope you find out more on this one.

[bandaches]

Weird distribution of titles on this thing.  Tons of stellar 1-4 series stuff... and Hacks?  Hope you find out more on this one.

I am surprised nobody replied as I thought this was a well known knock off maybe by the guy that was doing all the other posters.

[RawGoo]

I am surprised nobody replied as I thought this was a well known knock off maybe by the guy that was doing all the other posters.

I don't recall seeing it before.

[bigtomi]

I don't recall seeing it before.

Me, neither.

[Kook]

I am surprised nobody replied as I thought this was a well known knock off maybe by the guy that was doing all the other posters.

I've never seen that poster either

[ToadallyDude]

Reminds me of those old "Halloween Wackys" in a way.  I'm still tripping out on the titles chosen.  I wouldn't think it would be valuable unless it's some obscure advertising thing that didn't go anywhere.

[bandaches]

Reminds me of those old "Halloween Wackys" in a way.  I'm still tripping out on the titles chosen.  I wouldn't think it would be valuable unless it's some obscure advertising thing that didn't go anywhere.

So I decided to grab this poster as I am intrigued.  I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1 and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony was pulled.  I am intrigued on why Breadcrust is missing, was that ceased at some later date hence why it was never reused?  This strikes me as possibly a display poster maybe for stores to use around 1974 as middle series wackys were coming to market.  I am fairly certain much of the art up to series 15 was already created by the army of folks cranking out art. 

[Crazy Zoo Keeper]

So I decided to grab this poster as I am intrigued.  I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1 and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony was pulled.  I am intrigued on why Breadcrust is missing, was that ceased at some later date hence why it was never reused?  This strikes me as possibly a display poster maybe for stores to use around 1974 as middle series wackys were coming to market.  I am fairly certain much of the art up to series 15 was already created by the army of folks cranking out art.

Hi Ernie,

Looks like a really cool poster, but I highly doubt it is Topps produced or promotional based.  Way too many inconsistencies and red flags.

“I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1 and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony was pulled.”

But Band-ache, Skimpy, Maddie Boy, and Quacker Oats were all pulled before the first mail away poster which included Weakies and Breadcrust and yet all 4 appear in your poster.  It’s even been hypothesized that Band-ache was pulled while the first series was still live.

“I am intrigued on why Breadcrust is missing, was that ceased at some later date hence why it was never reused?” 

It was.

“This strikes me as possibly a display poster maybe for stores to use around 1974 as middle series wackys were coming to market.  I am fairly certain much of the art up to series 15 was already created by the army of folks cranking out art.”

I don’t think this is accurate, in 1974 (although you have access to David Saunders and can ask).  If this is true, there was no reason to use another artist for Series 6 when Norm we unavailable and there would have been no need to rush the Wacky Magazines and the WM checklist out as part of the 11th series and a group of mags again as a chunk of the 13th series.

For some reason there are a number of 15th series titles and maybe it’s just a bad picture of the poster but it looks like the black outlines around Old Spit and Shingles Chips are very different in color.  Combine this with the weird uneven spacing around titles and it doesn’t look like a Topps produced poster.

That said, the fact that no other ones have shown up make this a pretty cool mystery and the poster itself is a great display piece.

[Pupsi-Cola]

Who made these and when did they come out?

Never saw it before either, but wish I could get 1.

[bandaches]

Hi Ernie,

Looks like a really cool poster, but I highly doubt it is Topps produced or promotional based.  Way too many inconsistencies and red flags.

“I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1 and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony was pulled.”

But Band-ache, Skimpy, Maddie Boy, and Quacker Oats were all pulled before the first mail away poster which included Weakies and Breadcrust and yet all 4 appear in your poster.  It’s even been hypothesized that Band-ache was pulled while the first series was still live.

“I am intrigued on why Breadcrust is missing, was that ceased at some later date hence why it was never reused?” 

It was.

“This strikes me as possibly a display poster maybe for stores to use around 1974 as middle series wackys were coming to market.  I am fairly certain much of the art up to series 15 was already created by the army of folks cranking out art.”

I don’t think this is accurate, in 1974 (although you have access to David Saunders and can ask).  If this is true, there was no reason to use another artist for Series 6 when Norm we unavailable and there would have been no need to rush the Wacky Magazines and the WM checklist out as part of the 11th series and a group of mags again as a chunk of the 13th series.

For some reason there are a number of 15th series titles and maybe it’s just a bad picture of the poster but it looks like the black outlines around Old Spit and Shingles Chips are very different in color.  Combine this with the weird uneven spacing around titles and it doesn’t look like a Topps produced poster.

That said, the fact that no other ones have shown up make this a pretty cool mystery and the poster itself is a great display piece.

Quacker image was left on the display boxes so the cease on that one was far less intimidating than Weakies as Weakies was completely replaced on display boxes.  Who knows the details of maddie bandache and Skimpy, those are mere speculations at best based on sheet notes and changes.  The didn't use Norm for the middle series as they tried to go cheap on artwork, Norm was fully available and he touched up the subpar work of the middle series to try to bring that art to life.

[MoldRush]

For me what rules this out as a Topps-produced poster is simply the random array of the titles.  From the 70’s Wall Posters to the Old School posters a few years back, everything I’ve seen from Topps conforms to the same row/column grid layout as the uncut sticker sheets.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

  Who knows the details of maddie bandache and Skimpy, those are mere speculations at best based on sheet notes and changes. 

the fate of those three is not just mere speculation. They were pulled and struck on the 1st series Master c&d sheet, which shows them as ‘OUT’. More directly, they are absent from the OPC 1st series and all later prints (mail in poster, 1st reissue), because of that.

The reason I know this is not a Topps poster is that ugly logo. It’s a disaster, and also shows modern computer shading around the letters.

[mikecho]

the fate of those three is not just mere speculation. They were pulled and struck on the 1st series Master c&d sheet, which shows them as ‘OUT’. More directly, they are absent from the OPC 1st series and all later prints (mail in poster, 1st reissue), because of that.

The reason I know this is not a Topps poster is that ugly logo. It’s a disaster, and also shows modern computer shading around the letters.

Patrick, I guess it could be mentioned on the Spreadsheet that Skimpy, Maddie Boy and Breadcrust were pulled? I know there's a mention that Band-Ache was pulled, but not these three.

I seem to remember seeing or reading somewhere that Mutt's and maybe Lavirus were also possibly pulled, is that correct?

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

Patrick, I guess it could be mentioned on the Spreadsheet that Skimpy, Maddie Boy and Breadcrust were pulled? I know there's a mention that Band-Ache was pulled, but not these three.

I seem to remember seeing or reading somewhere that Mutt's and maybe Lavirus were also possibly pulled, is that correct?

not sure why that one title was singled out on the Spreadsheet for that mention. That info is now deleted.
There are a TON of titles that were cut across all the series - and as I've said before, I will not be putting that info into the sheet.

[mikecho]

not sure why that one title was singled out on the Spreadsheet for that mention. That info is now deleted.
There are a TON of titles that were cut across all the series - and as I've said before, I will not be putting that info into the sheet.

Okay, thanks.

I noticed Good and Empty's Note was changed (good one, too). It can be reduced to a single row now, I think, and the full real name is Good and Plenty Artificially Flavored Licorice Candy (I looked and that's the way it was on a picture of the original box from the 1960s (check lostwackys.com under the section '69 Wacky Ads for that one)). The rest of the Good & Plenty Wackys, however, have a variation of the same full name (Good & Plenty Licorice Candy - Artificially Flavored), but with an "&" symbol in the name instead of the word "and".

The Note, I think, should also say Pulled between the two printings of the series, so as to be clear to newcomers to the forum who may not know anything yet about the Wacky Ads.

[bandaches]

the fate of those three is not just mere speculation. They were pulled and struck on the 1st series Master c&d sheet, which shows them as ‘OUT’. More directly, they are absent from the OPC 1st series and all later prints (mail in poster, 1st reissue), because of that.

The reason I know this is not a Topps poster is that ugly logo. It’s a disaster, and also shows modern computer shading around the letters.

This poster was created in 1986 or earlier as it came from the collection of someone who passed in 1986.  I also note the images don't show a diecut so how did someone create all these images with black border and no diecut?

[bandaches]

Weakies was pulled from posters and display boxes yet included in the 1979 test set?  Let's stop believing there was consistent follow thru on the various levels of C&Ds.  Wacky packages Logos are all over the place thru the years.  The closest match to this one especially with the sideways S is the Zany inflatables.  I agree it is unlikely Topps made the poster but some company that had licensed wackys for some product is possible.  Still digging....

[Crazy Zoo Keeper]

“Quacker image was left on the display boxes so the cease on that one was far less intimidating than Weakies as Weakies was completely replaced on display boxes.  Who knows the details of maddie bandache and Skimpy, those are mere speculations at best based on sheet notes and changes.”

“Weakies was pulled from posters and display boxes yet included in the 1979 test set?  Let's stop believing there was consistent follow thru on the various levels of C&Ds.”

Ernie,

You are one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the Wacky world, don’t paint yourself in a corner over this poster.  You are dismissing the 4 titles pulled before the first mail in poster (I’m sure you also have/had a copy of Jay’s running C&D notes) as a result of C&Ds as “mere speculations at best . . . .” But go on to boldly state that “the cease on that one [Quacker] was far less intimidating than Weakies . . . .” as fact.

I agree with you that the application of the C&Ds by Topps was a bit haphazard. As you know, Topps almost had a 5th reprint series in the early 80’s that would have included unrepeated die cuts and they printed pulled titles, shortly thereafter, including Pupsi and Fearstone in the 1982 album stickers and the examples go on and on.  It’s interesting to note that your poster also contains other earlier C&Ds including Dr. Ono and Minute Mud.

My original comment regarding C&Ds was a direct response to your use of C&Ds to legitimize the poster as possibly produced by Topps:

           “’I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1
           and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony
           was pulled.’

           But Band-ache, Skimpy, Maddie Boy, and Quacker Oats were all pulled before the first mail away poster which included
           Weakies and Breadcrust and yet all 4 appear in your poster.  It’s even been hypothesized that Band-ache was pulled
           while the first series was still live.”

In that context, and in light of your repeated replies including “Let's stop believing there was consistent follow thru on the various levels of C&Ds” it’s hard for you to argue that the absence of Weakies and Run Tony, in the face of the inclusion of all 4 of the 1st series titles pulled before the mail away poster, was planned or carries any weight.

All of that said, I think we are in agreement that this is not a Topps produced poster, but is an extremely cool find that if the 1986 provenance is true, is more likely than not, a promotional piece by a licensee (I'm fascinated by the fact that I can't find an exact match for the logo).  The inclusion of numerous 15th series titles and no 16th series titles makes it look like it came out between late ’75 and late ’76.

Please keep us posted.  Cool find!

[Crazy Zoo Keeper]

I seem to remember seeing or reading somewhere that Mutt's and maybe Lavirus were also possibly pulled, is that correct?

While it is true that they were single printed, like Band-ache and Paul Maul as a result of the adaptation from the die-cut sheet and them appearing only once in the single printed row (Grave Train appears twice in the single printed row as a result of replacing Slum Maid), they did not appear on Jay's cumulative C&D list and in fact were used in nearly all sets moving forward (e.g. Reprints-both, Wonder Bread-both, Hostess pairs-Mutt's, '82 and '86 album sets-both, Irish-Lavirus, late 80's OPC reprints-both . . . .).

[mikecho]

While it is true that they were single printed, like Band-ache and Paul Maul as a result of the adaptation from the die-cut sheet and them appearing only once in the single printed row (Grave Train appears twice in the single printed row as a result of replacing Slum Maid), they did not appear on Jay's cumulative C&D list and in fact were used in nearly all sets moving forward (e.g. Reprints-both, Wonder Bread-both, Hostess pairs-Mutt's, '82 and '86 album sets-both, Irish-Lavirus, late 80's OPC reprints-both . . . .).

Thanks! Well, there's my answer!

[bandaches]

Ernie,

You are one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the Wacky world, don’t paint yourself in a corner over this poster.  You are dismissing the 4 titles pulled before the first mail in poster (I’m sure you also have/had a copy of Jay’s running C&D notes) as a result of C&Ds as “mere speculations at best . . . .” But go on to boldly state that “the cease on that one [Quacker] was far less intimidating than Weakies . . . .” as fact.

I agree with you that the application of the C&Ds by Topps was a bit haphazard. As you know, Topps almost had a 5th reprint series in the early 80’s that would have included unrepeated die cuts and they printed pulled titles, shortly thereafter, including Pupsi and Fearstone in the 1982 album stickers and the examples go on and on.  It’s interesting to note that your poster also contains other earlier C&Ds including Dr. Ono and Minute Mud.

My original comment regarding C&Ds was a direct response to your use of C&Ds to legitimize the poster as possibly produced by Topps:

           “’I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1
           and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony
           was pulled.’

           But Band-ache, Skimpy, Maddie Boy, and Quacker Oats were all pulled before the first mail away poster which included
           Weakies and Breadcrust and yet all 4 appear in your poster.  It’s even been hypothesized that Band-ache was pulled
           while the first series was still live.”

In that context, and in light of your repeated replies including “Let's stop believing there was consistent follow thru on the various levels of C&Ds” it’s hard for you to argue that the absence of Weakies and Run Tony, in the face of the inclusion of all 4 of the 1st series titles pulled before the mail away poster, was planned or carries any weight.

All of that said, I think we are in agreement that this is not a Topps produced poster, but is an extremely cool find that if the 1986 provenance is true, is more likely than not, a promotional piece by a licensee (I'm fascinated by the fact that I can't find an exact match for the logo).  The inclusion of numerous 15th series titles and no 16th series titles makes it look like it came out between late ’75 and late ’76.

Please keep us posted.  Cool find!

No first series sheets absent of bandache have been found so I again state there is speculation mixed with true impact in regards to C&D's.  We have found haphazardness with many aspects of Topps handling of this but given the HUGE popularity of Weakies and Run Tony, why on earth would someone leave these off this poster?  Because of this I decided to give some Logic and reason to their omission.  If this was a home developed poster in the late 1970s or 1980s. how did they produce these images absent of diecutting in the borders?  I am intrigued by this.

[bandaches]

While it is true that they were single printed, like Band-ache and Paul Maul as a result of the adaptation from the die-cut sheet and them appearing only once in the single printed row (Grave Train appears twice in the single printed row as a result of replacing Slum Maid), they did not appear on Jay's cumulative C&D list and in fact were used in nearly all sets moving forward (e.g. Reprints-both, Wonder Bread-both, Hostess pairs-Mutt's, '82 and '86 album sets-both, Irish-Lavirus, late 80's OPC reprints-both . . . .).

too many people still assume Mutt, Lavirus, Paul Mall and Bandache are in short supply due to a theory of their being pulled as opposed to being aware they were purposely short printed.

[bandaches]

By the way David saunders again confirmed that the artist were all mass producing paintings in 73 and 74 so people should stop assuming series 15 paintings were painted 1975  Nor assume that series 15 paintings were painted after earlier series paintings.   It is quite possible they were painted in 1973 and they just didn't decide to put them in a series till series 15  Hence the images could be available for use sooner.

[bandaches]

Where are all of the C&Ds listed and the exact language of the C&D?

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

No first series sheets absent of bandache have been found so I again state there is speculation mixed with true impact in regards to C&D's. 

That's true that there's no production sheet found that shows that the U.S. 1st series ever went into a 2nd print run missing any titles - but that doesn't mean titles weren't being C&D'd left and right at the time. And there's several 1st series mock up and proofs sheets out there that show these various levels of pulled titles for the set.

A second print run is irrelevant though, as it's an indisputable fact that Bandaches was C&D'd and pulled OUT from further use, as can be seen both on the Master Sheet, as well as it's removal from the 1st series OPC.

[bandaches]

That's true that there's no production sheet found that shows that the U.S. 1st series ever went into a 2nd print run missing any titles - but that doesn't mean titles weren't being C&D'd left and right at the time. And there's several 1st series mock up and proofs sheets out there that show these various levels of pulled titles for the set.

A second print run is irrelevant though, as it's an indisputable fact that Bandaches was C&D'd and pulled OUT from further use, as can be seen both on the Master Sheet, as well as it's removal from the 1st series OPC.

(Image removed from quote.)

Bandache is out in the wild with 1979 test series die cutting that nobody has explained.  There is no evidence bandache was actually pulled from distribution in the middle of the first series.  Clearly the C&D language on Weakies differed from Quacker as Qaucker was not removed from the display boxes.  That is why am interested in the exact C&D language per title.  Perhaps the titles could never be distributed as a card but promotional material or boxes was ok, who the hell knows but cross outs on a sheet doesnt paint close to a full picture.

[Tic_Toc]

The Wacky Packages font is not correct on that poster, which suggests to me that it was not made by Topps. It doesn't match the original die-cut logo or the subsequent logo form. I know Topps did a lot of odd things, but I can't see why they would bother to make yet another variation on the logo just for this poster.

[bandaches]

The Wacky Packages font is not correct on that poster, which suggests to me that it was not made by Topps. It doesn't match the original die-cut logo or the subsequent logo form. I know Topps did a lot of odd things, but I can't see why they would bother to make yet another variation on the logo just for this poster.

I think we established it is not likely a topps poster but have you looked at the logo fonts across all the packaging over the years?  It is all over the place.  Look at Zany inflatables for example.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

I think we established it is not likely a topps poster but have you looked at the logo fonts across all the packaging over the years?  It is all over the place.  Look at Zany inflatables for example.

you mentioned that one before. I don't see a problem with it though. Looks pretty spot on.
the one on that poster is just god-awful

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

Bandache is out in the wild with 1979 test series die cutting that nobody has explained.  There is no evidence bandache was actually pulled from distribution in the middle of the first series.  Clearly the C&D language on Weakies differed from Quacker as Qaucker was not removed from the display boxes.  That is why am interested in the exact C&D language per title.  Perhaps the titles could never be distributed as a card but promotional material or boxes was ok, who the hell knows but cross outs on a sheet doesnt paint close to a full picture.

Nothing was pulled from distribution in the middle of the 1st series. I'm not sure what you are trying to point out with that argument?

Were Bandache and many other titles C&D'd from further use after Series 1? Absolutely, positively yes.

Was there different language to the C&Ds that forced some titles to be removed immediately in a run, and others that had more lenient language that allowed for use until the end of a print run? Seems that way.

There was also a delay effect that was in play too, the lag time from when a company noticed their product and sent a notice to Topps.
For example, it was a C&D against 2nd Series Putrid Cat Chow that forced the pull of Bum Chex and Choke Wagon during distribution of 4th Series - not any C&D's against those actual titles.

"To: Ben Solomon From: Joel Shorin Subject: Ralston Purina Company. 10/4/73." "You have already received instructions to remove PUTRID CAT CHOW from 2nd Series if we re-run. I understand that we have two other products of the Ralston Purina Co., Satirized in the 4th Series and that this Series is currently on press. Please make sure to remove the following two subjects--CHOKE WAGON and BUM CHEX--from our next run of 4th Series and send me two sample sheets of the printing which eliminates same so that I might have it in my files."

[bandaches]

you mentioned that one before. I don't see a problem with it though. Looks pretty spot on.
the one on that poster is just god-awful

there are numerous differences, the S is the most notable, completely different angle, overlapping of several letter differs.

[bandaches]

Nothing was pulled from distribution in the middle of the 1st series. I'm not sure what you are trying to point out with that argument?

Were Bandache and many other titles C&D'd from further use after Series 1? Absolutely, positively yes.

Was there different language to the C&Ds that forced some titles to be removed immediately in a run, and others that had more lenient language that allowed for use until the end of a print run? Seems that way.

There was also a delay effect that was in play too, the lag time from when a company noticed their product and sent a notice to Topps.
For example, it was a C&D against 2nd Series Putrid Cat Chow that forced the pull of Bum Chex and Choke Wagon during distribution of 4th Series - not any C&D's against those actual titles.

"To: Ben Solomon From: Joel Shorin Subject: Ralston Purina Company. 10/4/73." "You have already received instructions to remove PUTRID CAT CHOW from 2nd Series if we re-run. I understand that we have two other products of the Ralston Purina Co., Satirized in the 4th Series and that this Series is currently on press. Please make sure to remove the following two subjects--CHOKE WAGON and BUM CHEX--from our next run of 4th Series and send me two sample sheets of the printing which eliminates same so that I might have it in my files."

My point has not varied, you assigned hard and fast rules to ALL C&Ds and I am stating it was haphazard.  Again, why was Weakies completely removed from display boxes and Quacker only altered?  Why is there a 1979 version of bandache diecutting? Was it ready to be used again for something?  Obviously all C&Ds have long expired since none of them are being followed today.  When did they expire?  Mid 80's, mid 90's?

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

there are numerous differences, the S is the most notable, completely different angle, overlapping of several letter differs.

There are no differences, the Zany inflatable logo is absolutely identical.

That knock off poster is the one with all those above problems

[bandaches]

There are no differences, the Zany inflatable logo is absolutely identical.

That knock off poster is the one with all those above problems

(Image removed from quote.)

good point, they do line up well but like 19 posts ago I agreed this is not likely a Topps poster but perhaps a 3rd party selling wackys of some kind.  I still don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run tony are missing and that the images have no diecuts in the black borders for a poster created 1986 or earlier.