Author Topic: Knock off posters  (Read 4147 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2020, 06:58:11 AM »
My point has not varied, you assigned hard and fast rules to ALL C&Ds and I am stating it was haphazard.  Again, why was Weakies completely removed from display boxes and Quacker only altered?  Why is there a 1979 version of bandache diecutting? Was it ready to be used again for something?  Obviously all C&Ds have long expired since none of them are being followed today.  When did they expire?  Mid 80's, mid 90's?
Just taking the contrary point, that C&Ds were not haphazard and chaotic. Were there some in-house only items that escaped into the wild? seems that way (e.g. numberless die-cuts, irish test set, etc.). but that doesn't invalidate the whole process, and that there wasn't a methodology in their application.

Looking again at the boxes, we can see that initially Topps only removed the text from the Weakies and Quaker images for 6th/7th boxes - which likely was the cheapest solution for Topps. Eliminates the offending names, but retains the Topps character art, saves money not having to re-tool anything. (They did the same with the Cheapios tattoo)
Likely General Mills saw the textless version and was not amused, and then forced the complete removal of the box image as seen on 8th.
Do we have letters from Topps and GM lawyers showing that discussion? No. But it's also not a haphazard progression of events.


Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2020, 07:51:35 AM »
Just taking the contrary point, that C&Ds were not haphazard and chaotic. Were there some in-house only items that escaped into the wild? seems that way (e.g. numberless die-cuts, irish test set, etc.). but that doesn't invalidate the whole process, and that there wasn't a methodology in their application.

Looking again at the boxes, we can see that initially Topps only removed the text from the Weakies and Quaker images for 6th/7th boxes - which likely was the cheapest solution for Topps. Eliminates the offending names, but retains the Topps character art, saves money not having to re-tool anything. (They did the same with the Cheapios tattoo)
Likely General Mills saw the textless version and was not amused, and then forced the complete removal of the box image as seen on 8th.
Do we have letters from Topps and GM lawyers showing that discussion? No. But it's also not a haphazard progression of events.
topps was nothing close to a well oiled machine with wackys, they had a hot product that they were frantically trying to crank out as much art work as they could within months in 1974 which is why they had so many series in short time span.  The C&Ds all had their own flavor and different handling by Topps on top of that(I call it haphazard).  The lack of consistency of the C&Ds make it impossible to roll out a precise sequence of events and handling.  Again, when did the C&Ds become null and void?

Regardless of this, what is your theory on how this 1986 or earlier poster(there are at least 2 of them by the way) was created?  It has no diecuts in the borders, the images are clearly EXACT wacky package titles, two notoriously famous and favorite titles Weakies and Run Tony that were both C&Ds are absent.....We spent a lot of time saying what it is not, it is not a million things, what could it be?  My Money is still on a 3rd party that did or was planning to do something with wackys in the 1980s.  I dont see how a hobbyist would have made this.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline MoldRush

  • Posts: 888
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2020, 12:53:56 PM »
Again, when did the C&Ds become null and void?

My Money is still on a 3rd party that did or was planning to do something with wackys in the 1980s.  I dont see how a hobbyist would have made this.

Ive wondered about the C&Ds ever since ANS rolled out.  I remember when Wackys were covered in an episode of Unwrapped, a Topps rep made it sound as if by 2004 the tide had shifted 180 degrees and now every company wanted to be parodied.  I doubt it was that simple; more likely between 1991 and 2004 Topps secured a legal victory that for whatever reason they choose not to disclose to the card-collecting public.

With respect to the poster, I would agree it was likely produced commercially but maybe not fully marketed.  Thinking of all the ANS era knock-off products, its the only plausible explanation.  With todays computer and printing equipment I would imagine this could easily be a homemade if produced recently, but not likely pre-1986.


Offline mikecho

  • Posts: 1981
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2020, 01:37:10 PM »
Ive wondered about the C&Ds ever since ANS rolled out.  I remember when Wackys were covered in an episode of Unwrapped, a Topps rep made it sound as if by 2004 the tide had shifted 180 degrees and now every company wanted to be parodied.  I doubt it was that simple; more likely between 1991 and 2004 Topps secured a legal victory that for whatever reason they choose not to disclose to the card-collecting public.

With respect to the poster, I would agree it was likely produced commercially but maybe not fully marketed.  Thinking of all the ANS era knock-off products, its the only plausible explanation.  With todays computer and printing equipment I would imagine this could easily be a homemade if produced recently, but not likely pre-1986.
If you'd like to know some of the details of the C&Ds, look up Replies #68, 71 and 73 in the thread "What is the most-parodied product among all Wackys?" They should tell you most of what you need to know about what happened by the end of it all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 08:16:49 AM by mikecho »

Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2020, 06:20:42 AM »
Regardless of this, what is your theory on how this 1986 or earlier poster(there are at least 2 of them by the way) was created?  It has no diecuts in the borders, the images are clearly EXACT wacky package titles, two notoriously famous and favorite titles Weakies and Run Tony that were both C&Ds are absent.....We spent a lot of time saying what it is not, it is not a million things, what could it be?  My Money is still on a 3rd party that did or was planning to do something with wackys in the 1980s.  I dont see how a hobbyist would have made this.
What could it be? I still say this is fan produced.
I don't believe this is 3rd party item or had anything to do with Topps.
That logo is wrong and doesn't conform to the original.
There is no symbol to the right of the S, or any copyright notice on the sheet.

There are a couple of dozen titles that were C&D on the sheet. And one that actually forced a U.S. production change - Dr. Ono.

Back to the logo - with the gradient shading, and styling of the letters, that tells me it's computer crafted. I do not believe this is from '86 or earlier.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2020, 09:22:56 PM »
What could it be? I still say this is fan produced.
I don't believe this is 3rd party item or had anything to do with Topps.
That logo is wrong and doesn't conform to the original.
There is no symbol to the right of the S, or any copyright notice on the sheet.

There are a couple of dozen titles that were C&D on the sheet. And one that actually forced a U.S. production change - Dr. Ono.

Back to the logo - with the gradient shading, and styling of the letters, that tells me it's computer crafted. I do not believe this is from '86 or earlier.
I don't see why the person who sold this to me would make up a story that the 2 posters his brother had were stored away when his brother died in 1986.  He now dug his brother's stuff out, and included with these posters was a pile of late 70s and early 80s baseball cards.  No other wackys were in the collection which i also found to be intriguing.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline RawGoo

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5772
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2020, 11:39:45 PM »
I don't see why the person who sold this to me would make up a story that the 2 posters his brother had were stored away when his brother died in 1986.  He now dug his brother's stuff out, and included with these posters was a pile of late 70s and early 80s baseball cards.  No other wackys were in the collection which i also found to be intriguing.

It's amazing what turns up in older baseball card collections.  The beautiful Jolly Mean #21 that turned up earlier this year was found with 5 other die cuts in a big box of baseball cards.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2020, 07:06:50 PM »
It's amazing what turns up in older baseball card collections.  The beautiful Jolly Mean #21 that turned up earlier this year was found with 5 other die cuts in a big box of baseball cards.
Agreed,  it seems wacky packages are often just chucked in with baseball card collections and some gold mines can be found
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline ToadallyDude

  • Posts: 362
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2020, 06:18:29 PM »
Jumping back onto this one after being away from the site for a while... and wanted to add a couple things...

- Looking at the "Wacky Packages" logo, it's really obvious that it's an attempt at the Topp's logo by someone with a little bit of graphic design, but there's no reason Topps or even a licensed company would alter it that far out.  The open loops in the letters are too big, those legs on the K's are weird, and that "S" at the end is totally a giveaway that they ran out of room & tried to squeeze it in.  No pro would do that.  They'd either measure it out from the start or re-do it.  So, I don't think the logo itself was Topps made or Topps licensed.

- But the quality of the stickers is puzzling, and only Topps would have had access to the printing plates or are if it were actually done before 1986.  So, my feeling is that it was either done by someone WORKING for Topps who had access & did it as a passion project... OR, it was done MUCH later (like after 2000) when hi-res scans of the original art that we all owned was plastered all over the internet.  More likely, even later when all the Topps Vault stuff had come out too.  And the weird collation of series with so few iconic titles from the middle series, make it seem "fan-made" to me. 

- But if I'm wrong... then I think it's possible it could have been a promo made for use in another country (UK, Autralia... Japan?) where they might not care what titles were on it and they just grabbed the plates for what was available at the time (recently produced 15th series, and iconic early titles that were already slated for reprinting on the mail-away posters & upcoming 1979 reprint sets?  I don't know.  Just throwing darts.

- It's got most of the 1st series, trickling down from the top.  Half of the 2nd and 3rd clumped at the bottom.  A couple of 4th & 5th, and a hand-full of 15th... and "Caged" & "Czechlettes".  Huh?  It makes absolutely no sense.  So, without seeing it close-up to see if it's made from photocopies of the stickers or the original art, it's like it was made just to confuse the fans.  heh.

QUESTION:  in all the talk about pulled titles from sheets... has anyone considered that the titles could be pulled AFTER printing & cutting, before being put in packs.  I have a feeling for late C&D's that's exactly what they'd have done.  And I'm sure a ton of those got pocketed rather than tossed, too, which may be why high grade pulled stuff turns up out of the blue sometimes.  Just a thought.

Offline mikecho

  • Posts: 1981
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2021, 06:42:42 PM »
Ernie,

You are one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the Wacky world, dont paint yourself in a corner over this poster.  You are dismissing the 4 titles pulled before the first mail in poster (Im sure you also have/had a copy of Jays running C&D notes) as a result of C&Ds as mere speculations at best . . . . But go on to boldly state that the cease on that one [Quacker] was far less intimidating than Weakies . . . . as fact.

I agree with you that the application of the C&Ds by Topps was a bit haphazard. As you know, Topps almost had a 5th reprint series in the early 80s that would have included unrepeated die cuts and they printed pulled titles, shortly thereafter, including Pupsi and Fearstone in the 1982 album stickers and the examples go on and on.  Its interesting to note that your poster also contains other earlier C&Ds including Dr. Ono and Minute Mud.

My original comment regarding C&Ds was a direct response to your use of C&Ds to legitimize the poster as possibly produced by Topps:

           I don't think it a coincidence that Weakies and Run Tony are absent from this poster when most of the rest of series 1
           and 2 are displayed.  Weakies was pulled from the mail away posters and removed from display boxes and Run Tony
           was pulled.

           But Band-ache, Skimpy, Maddie Boy, and Quacker Oats were all pulled before the first mail away poster which included
           Weakies and Breadcrust and yet all 4 appear in your poster.  Its even been hypothesized that Band-ache was pulled
           while the first series was still live.

In that context, and in light of your repeated replies including Let's stop believing there was consistent follow thru on the various levels of C&Ds its hard for you to argue that the absence of Weakies and Run Tony, in the face of the inclusion of all 4 of the 1st series titles pulled before the mail away poster, was planned or carries any weight.

All of that said, I think we are in agreement that this is not a Topps produced poster, but is an extremely cool find that if the 1986 provenance is true, is more likely than not, a promotional piece by a licensee (I'm fascinated by the fact that I can't find an exact match for the logo).  The inclusion of numerous 15th series titles and no 16th series titles makes it look like it came out between late 75 and late 76.

Please keep us posted.  Cool find!
Is there an outside source for the 5th Rerun Series outside of lostwackys.com? I'd like to mention this in the Wikipedia Wacky Packages article, but when I tried to quote lostwackys.com's article on it, someone told me that site was blackballed by Wikipedia.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2021, 05:37:03 AM »
Is there an outside source for the 5th Rerun Series outside of lostwackys.com? I'd like to mention this in the Wikipedia Wacky Packages article, but when I tried to quote lostwackys.com's article on it, someone told me that site was blackballed by Wikipedia.
Why is Lostwackys.com blackballed?  For while it was clear it was collectors modifying wiki as there was a silly contest of knocking each others' websites from the listing.  Perhaps because Lostwackys.com pops up ads? 
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2021, 05:41:43 AM »
Jumping back onto this one after being away from the site for a while... and wanted to add a couple things...

- Looking at the "Wacky Packages" logo, it's really obvious that it's an attempt at the Topp's logo by someone with a little bit of graphic design, but there's no reason Topps or even a licensed company would alter it that far out.  The open loops in the letters are too big, those legs on the K's are weird, and that "S" at the end is totally a giveaway that they ran out of room & tried to squeeze it in.  No pro would do that.  They'd either measure it out from the start or re-do it.  So, I don't think the logo itself was Topps made or Topps licensed.

- But the quality of the stickers is puzzling, and only Topps would have had access to the printing plates or are if it were actually done before 1986.  So, my feeling is that it was either done by someone WORKING for Topps who had access & did it as a passion project... OR, it was done MUCH later (like after 2000) when hi-res scans of the original art that we all owned was plastered all over the internet.  More likely, even later when all the Topps Vault stuff had come out too.  And the weird collation of series with so few iconic titles from the middle series, make it seem "fan-made" to me. 

- But if I'm wrong... then I think it's possible it could have been a promo made for use in another country (UK, Autralia... Japan?) where they might not care what titles were on it and they just grabbed the plates for what was available at the time (recently produced 15th series, and iconic early titles that were already slated for reprinting on the mail-away posters & upcoming 1979 reprint sets?  I don't know.  Just throwing darts.

- It's got most of the 1st series, trickling down from the top.  Half of the 2nd and 3rd clumped at the bottom.  A couple of 4th & 5th, and a hand-full of 15th... and "Caged" & "Czechlettes".  Huh?  It makes absolutely no sense.  So, without seeing it close-up to see if it's made from photocopies of the stickers or the original art, it's like it was made just to confuse the fans.  heh.

QUESTION:  in all the talk about pulled titles from sheets... has anyone considered that the titles could be pulled AFTER printing & cutting, before being put in packs.  I have a feeling for late C&D's that's exactly what they'd have done.  And I'm sure a ton of those got pocketed rather than tossed, too, which may be why high grade pulled stuff turns up out of the blue sometimes.  Just a thought.
For some reason I never saw your post here Scott.  The person who had this poster had 2 of them.  His brother had this since mid to late 1980s but not sure where his brother got them as his brother passed and he was just digging thru stuff his brother had stored away.  I have not had much luck getting more info from this guy other that he is certain his bother didn't make the poster on his own.  The images are crystal clear, they don't look like 1980's photocopies.   Maybe this was made in some other country like you said in the realm of magnetic signs made in taiwan...who the heck knows.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline JasonLiebig

  • Posts: 1691
    • CollectingCandy.com
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2021, 03:34:38 PM »
Ernie,

Boy, looking at the logo and the shaping and form of the border and (maybe) shadow, I'm with the previous commenters that that looks to be clearly produced in the post-Photoshop era.  I go pretty deep on my packaging printing and printing and graphic design history pretty deep, and that just screams Photoshop.  Regardless of what someone said or didn't say, there are certain entry-level digital stylistic flares that are clear points to era, and to my eye (on this not-so-crystal clear jpeg) it's just painfully that. Perhaps upon a clearer examination I might think differently, but it looks like things I've done (and learned to do better). 

Would you mind posting some clear photos of the center logo from the poster and maybe a couple smaller parts of it?  If I can get a closer, clearer look at that logo, and if after doing so I remain of this same opinion, maybe I can endeavor to recreate the common, someone amateurish blending selections they're utilizing to get said effect. And explain how it was done.

I really do think that logo is the tell on the poster, though.   
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all.

Offline mikecho

  • Posts: 1981
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2021, 04:46:34 PM »
Why is Lostwackys.com blackballed?  For while it was clear it was collectors modifying wiki as there was a silly contest of knocking each others' websites from the listing.  Perhaps because Lostwackys.com pops up ads?
Ernie, I've got no idea why this is the way it is. I only know what I've told you.

I do remember someone else saying to me once that wikis are not permitted to be used as sources because the information in them is always changing, or something like that.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 08:05:41 PM by mikecho »

Offline koduck

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2289
  • Make it snappy!
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2021, 07:34:34 PM »
Ernie,

Boy, looking at the logo and the shaping and form of the border and (maybe) shadow, I'm with the previous commenters that that looks to be clearly produced in the post-Photoshop era.  I go pretty deep on my packaging printing and printing and graphic design history pretty deep, and that just screams Photoshop.  Regardless of what someone said or didn't say, there are certain entry-level digital stylistic flares that are clear points to era, and to my eye (on this not-so-crystal clear jpeg) it's just painfully that. Perhaps upon a clearer examination I might think differently, but it looks like things I've done (and learned to do better). 

I really do think that logo is the tell on the poster, though.

Just catching up on this thread and I think Jason has the right take on this. Just one thing to add: If it were an officially licensed Topps product, they'd likely have the "Topps" logo included near the Wacky logo. That to me is a pretty good sign that it's made by a third party.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2021, 06:18:17 AM »
Ernie, I've got no idea why this is the way it is. I only know what I've told you.

I do remember someone else saying to me once that wikis are not permitted to be used as sources because the information in them is always changing, or something like that.
greg's site is referenced as a source and it changes all the time.  That is the nature of a hobby.  Very odd.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 4216
  • http://www.wackypackage.com/
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: Knock off posters
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2021, 06:31:21 AM »
Just catching up on this thread and I think Jason has the right take on this. Just one thing to add: If it were an officially licensed Topps product, they'd likely have the "Topps" logo included near the Wacky logo. That to me is a pretty good sign that it's made by a third party.
Agreed it looks to be 3rd party or knockoff like the puffy magnets.  I will never be able to get more info from the guy I bought it from as he just doesn't know because his brother who had this passed a long time ago.  Is it possible he fabricated the story and he made this with recent technology, anything is possible.  the images do have a dot matrix look to them but the copyrights all removed so someone spent some time creating this with a strange assortment of titles.

Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/