Wacky Postcards Series 8

[FourRoses]

I really don't know what these guys are commenting on because most of the sketches have been outstanding! Other than the Zeleznik's I haven't really seen any really bad ones. I don't mean to put Zeleznik under the bus but his art is fantastic but he doesn't spend too much time on his sketches and it also shows when he didn't even color in 2 color sketches we've seen so far. That tells me he is flipping them pretty fast to get them done while other artists are really putting some effort into them. If the products not good people will quit buying. The artists know this and so does Topps.

Reply #10 and 75  http://www.wackypackagesforum.com/index.php?topic=2081.0

Today's gem:


I'm just seeing a trend. Am I crazy for wanting a sketch that doesn't look like it was produced while waiting in line at McDonalds? Can you tell all of us here you'd be tickled to find this in your envelope? How about the one with the two newts where I asked someone if he got his hands on a blank card and sketched it himself?

[JasonLiebig]

Reply #10 and 75  http://www.wackypackagesforum.com/index.php?topic=2081.0

Today's gem:


I'm just seeing a trend. Am I crazy for wanting a sketch that doesn't look like it was produced while waiting in line at McDonalds? Can you tell all of us here you'd be tickled to find this in your envelope? How about the one with the two newts where I asked someone if he got his hands on a blank card and sketched it himself?

You are not crazy for wanting more.  Everyone wants more.  But a "sketch" kind of IS something you produce while waiting in line at a McDonalds.  That fact that people that it isn't - that is the disconnect.  

It's like, at a point, autographs weren't enough.... now it's sketches, but then sketches aren't enough... so now it's finished drawings, but still called sketches.  

We all want art - and no one should feel bad for wanting that.  I just think it's gotten bad, when folks are now resentful of not getting more than what they were promised.  Just because occasionally, and in fact, more and more often, it is happening.  Our expectations have been kicked up, due to what we've seen.  But to avoid resentment, we need to remind ourselves that it is not what we are promised.

Sketches get drawn on napkins at McDonalds.... and diners.   Great songs are not written in calligraphy.. and live performance doesn't sounds like the album... but at a point people start to expect it to.  

[FourRoses]

You are not crazy for wanting more.  Everyone wants more.  But a "sketch" kind of IS like something you produce while waiting in line at a McDonalds.  This is the disconnect. 



Sketches get drawn on napkins at McDonalds.... and diners.   Great songs are not written in calligraphy.. and live performance doesn't sounds like the album... but at a point people start to expect it to. 

No my friend, we don't all want art. I just want something that looks as if the person tried and gave some effort. That's all.

By the way, you're not attending the right concerts. Some performers sound damn good in an closed arena!

[BumChex]

I think the fact that the "product" is being defined by the bonus pieces, rather than the product itself -- the postcards -- is a symptom that these are in danger, anyway.  It's the chase card problem, but with sketches.  It's not sustainable, and leads to implosion.  How can it not?

  Production numbers are ramped up, not because 1,000 people want LE sets of postcards, but because a couple hundred people are willing to buy 3-5 sets each...    That's overproduction, isn't it?

Hold on there about sketches just being a bonus piece. You don't think they are included in the $45 price? You think they are give-a-ways?
If it's all about the postcards themselves then why is Topps charging $45 for a set when I could just buy a set of postcards (non LE) for $8. Are you saying the bio cards are making up the difference? Topps is charging us probably around $35 just for the sketch so it's not much of a bonus if you look at it that way.

[deadpresidentsvisa]

Hold on there about sketches just being a bonus piece. You don't think they are included in the $45 price? You think they are give-a-ways?
If it's all about the postcards themselves then why is Topps charging $45 for a set when I could just buy a set of postcards (non LE) for $8. Are you saying the bio cards are making up the difference? Topps is charging us probably around $35 just for the sketch so it's not much of a bonus if you look at it that way.

Exactly people are buying these sets to get a sketch card or 2 to keep and maybe 1 they can flip and get some of their investment back.With all the justified bitching about John Zeleznik's sketches,they might as well add me to the series 9 group of sketch artists,couldn't do much worse.
Alright starting monday i am a full-time sketch artist specializing in monster characters

[FourRoses]

I think all of us should take out an index card and draw something then post it on here for all to see.

[JasonLiebig]

Hold on there about sketches just being a bonus piece. You don't think they are included in the $45 price? You think they are give-a-ways?
If it's all about the postcards themselves then why is Topps charging $45 for a set when I could just buy a set of postcards (non LE) for $8. Are you saying the bio cards are making up the difference? Topps is charging us probably around $35 just for the sketch so it's not much of a bonus if you look at it that way.

That's actually a pretty good point.  I guess I was thinking Old School economics, where it's easier to say that your purchase price could go to everything without the sketch.  But, put like that, $35 should merit something.

The question is, what does it merit?  

 For series one, people were happy with actual sketches.  Heck, for a time they even sold for high premiums on the secondary market.

This goes back to expectations.  At a comic con, I've seen "celebrities" who can charge $20 for an autograph, and more to pose for a photo.  Well, that's never been worthwhile for me.  But for many it is worth it.  But if you get inline, and want a kiss on the lips, because the other celeb provided, well, your expectations have changed, but the deal has not.

I understand your frustration, but I hope you realize it is entirely based on your expectations - no one ever promised more than $30 for a quickie sketch.   What Topps has promised, in terms of sketch cards, has not changed, that I can see, since series one.   I think most folks got a kick out of the things being autographed back then.  Oh, the innocent era of postcards series one.

I don't think its unreasonable that expectations have grown.  We've seen crazy stuff.  BUT, to let those exceptions define the norm, well, it's only going to cause disappointment and resentment.

Topps is not guiltless in this.  Creating chase cards that can only be completed by buying multiples also pushes to buy more than you need or want to.  There IS a fun aspect to it, but if you don't hit the right balance, fans get pissed.

[JasonLiebig]

I think all of us should take out an index card and draw something then post it on here for all to see.

You miss the point.  Is Babe Ruth's signature special?  Is it any better of a signature than yours? 

I think, initially, it was just getting a sketch from the artist.  It was little more than an enhanced autograph.  Now, people expect WAY more. 

[BumChex]

Reply #10 and 75  http://www.wackypackagesforum.com/index.php?topic=2081.0

Today's gem:


I'm just seeing a trend. Am I crazy for wanting a sketch that doesn't look like it was produced while waiting in line at McDonalds? Can you tell all of us here you'd be tickled to find this in your envelope? How about the one with the two newts where I asked someone if he got his hands on a blank card and sketched it himself?

Now I'm really confused because you are commenting on Z sketches that 2 others posted but in your post earlier today you said you got 2 bad ones and put them on ebay but I don't see them on ebay. Were the 2 sketches your referring to both Z sketches?
I want to see the 2 sketch cards you could wipe your ass with...LOL

[FourRoses]

You miss the point.  Is Babe Ruth's signature special?  Is it any better of a signature than yours?    

Your example of The Babe is a bit extreme. Actually, I think it is you who misses the point. A few of us agree the sketches from one particular artist don't look any better then what we can draw and we aren't artists.

Now I'm really confused because you are commenting on Z sketches that 2 others posted but in your post earlier today you said you got 2 bad ones and put them on ebay but I don't see them on ebay. Were the 2 sketches your referring to both Z sketches?
I want to see the 2 sketch cards you could wipe your ass with...LOL

Actually, I restated my position. Two are acceptable. All you need to do is look at the first post (in a different topic) showing the sketches from this PC series. I have doubles of the first scan I provided. The toilet paper material is the latest one in this topic.

[JasonLiebig]

Your example of The Babe is a bit extreme. Actually, I think it is you who misses the point. A few of us agree the sketches from one particular artist don't look any better then what we can draw and we aren't artists.

I've seen some great artist sketches, that I guess I could simulate.  I can imitate Al Pacino, too... But I don't get an Oscar.    You want a drawing or an illustration.  Not a sketch.  I get it, lots of artists have been providing that.  

Just because I can scream "You can't handle the truth!" does not make me Jack Nicholson.  Nor does it diminish his performance.  If someone can draw as well as an artist can sketch, no argument is made.  I get it, but it doesn't prove anything.  He's sketching.  The fact is, he can draw or paint better than you can, which is why he got the sketch gig.  Its as simple as that.

[FourRoses]

I've seen some great artist sketches, that I guess I could simulate.  I can imitate Al Pacino, too... But I don't get an Oscar.    You want a drawing or an illustration.  Not a sketch.  I get it, lots of artists have been providing that.  

Just because I can scream "You can't handle the truth!" does not make me Jack Nicholson.  Nor does it diminish his performance.  If someone can draw as well as an artist can sketch, no argument is made.  I get it, but it doesn't prove anything.  He's sketching.  The fact is, he can draw or paint better than you can, which is why he got the sketch gig.  Its as simple as that.

If you base that on what we've see so far, you are easily duped.






Out of those two, which looks better? Would you agree that both are sketches and not an illustration or drawing?

[JasonLiebig]

If you base that on what we've see so far, you are easily duped.






Out of those two, which looks better? Would you agree that both are sketches and not an illustration or drawing?

One of those is a lose line sketch.  The other is tighter...a bit of an open drawing style.  To my eye.  Are most artists no longer just sketching and is there a range in finished quality?  Yes.  

You keep wanting to change the definition of sketch, but it's not going to change.  

But I understand why expectations have become unrealistic.  That doesn't change the fact that they have, and that they are - unrealistic.  At least why we are still calling these sketch cards..  Perhaps Topps needs to alter the behind the scenes, so artists know that "sketches" are no longer good enough for sketch cards.  

[FourRoses]

You keep wanting to change the definition of sketch, but it's not going to change.  

But I understand why expectations have become unrealistic.  That doesn't change the fact that they have, and that they are - unrealistic.  At least why we are still calling these sketch cards..  Perhaps Topps needs to alter the behind the scenes, so artists know that "sketches" are no longer good enough for sketch cards.  

You seem to be justifying crap and believing a sketch card can't look nice. I've just showed you that it can.

[deadpresidentsvisa]

One of those is a lose line sketch.  The other is tighter...a bit of an open drawing style.  To my eye.  Are most artists no longer just sketching and is there a range in finished quality?  Yes.  

You keep wanting to change the definition of sketch, but it's not going to change.  

But I understand why expectations have become unrealistic.  That doesn't change the fact that they have, and that they are - unrealistic.  At least why we are still calling these sketch cards..  Perhaps Topps needs to alter the behind the scenes, so artists know that "sketches" are no longer good enough for sketch cards.  

I have a simpler solution let JZ paint some of the art and remove him from the sketches,bet dollars for doughnuts next to no one wants to pull a Zeleznik

[JasonLiebig]

Sketch by Picasso.

Yeah yeah... it sucks, right?  How is that a good sketch??  Your 10-year-old could do as well...

Here's a funny, well-worn, tale - it might not be true and might be apocryphal, or maybe it shows a humor and insight from a great artist.  Either way, here goes:

Picasso was in a park when a woman approached him and asked him to draw a portrait of her.

Picasso agreed and quickly sketches her.

After handing the sketch to her, she is pleased with the likeness and asks how much she owed to him.

Picasso replies: "$5,000."

The woman screamed, "but it took you only five minutes."

"No, madam, it took me all my life," replied Picasso.

[Porkie]

I have a simpler solution let JZ paint some of the art and remove him from the sketches,bet dollars foe doughnuts next to no one wants to pull a Zeleznik

I absolutely agree with this.

As I mentioned earlier, JZ is obviously not into doing the sketches (for whatever reason) and should not be doing them. This is not a critique of his work as a whole -- but he is not doing sketches to the current standard of all the other artists, not even close. It's that simple.

[JasonLiebig]

I have a simpler solution let JZ paint some of the art and remove him from the sketches,bet dollars for doughnuts next to no one wants to pull a Zeleznik

People all want to pull a full-color painting... and some of them practically are getting that.  

Look, based on what's been created, I can't dispute that maybe the guy shouldn't be doing these.  But this level of sketch card can't keep going - unless it can, I guess.  

[JasonLiebig]

I absolutely agree with this.

As I mentioned earlier, JZ is obviously not into doing the sketches (for whatever reason) and should not be doing them. This is not a critique of his work as a whole -- but he is not doing sketches to the current standard of all the other artists, not even close. It's that simple.

At least if you guys are going to demand this:  Admit that the expectation is no longer for sketches.  You demand something closer to a finished illustration.  Call it what it is. 

You're condemning this guy based on unrealistic expectations.   Did you see the Picasso sketch?  I don't know what you think of his work, but most folks consider him a pretty great artist, and that's what he called a sketch.  So, I'll go with his definition over a Wacky collector.  Which isn't to insult any of us here.

It is to change the definition of the discussion.  Let's call this what it is:  It's a demand that every artist do more than just a sketch.  Is that unreasonable?  I don't know.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  But, based on the fact that  so many artist ARE doing more than just a sketch, it shouldn't come as a surprise. 

[BumChex]

I have a simpler solution let JZ paint some of the art and remove him from the sketches,bet dollars for doughnuts next to no one wants to pull a Zeleznik

You're about pulling Z sketches. It's kind of like OLDS 1 & 2. No one wanted to pull the same Lynch sketch so it drove up the demand and desire for the other sketches. It also drove up prices because you didn't want to order a case and get 13 Lynch cards. It's cheaper to pay over $200 for a nice sketch than to risk $200 on 4 boxes that could have crap.
When you look at higher sketch prices you have to realize some of these higher prices are justified. Do you think $400 is too much for a color sketch? It's the price of 8 boxes. Buy 8 boxes and see if you are lucky to pull a color sketch. You could buy 40 boxes and not pull anything and nothing to sell to recoup your costs.

[FourRoses]

People all want to pull a full-color painting... and some of them practically are getting that.  

Look, based on what's been created, I can't dispute that maybe the guy shouldn't be doing these.  But this level of sketch card can't keep going - unless it can, I guess.  

No, I don't expect a god damn piece of art. I just expect something remotely presentable. Please, don't tell me what I want when I'm clearly stating something to the contrary. This card left a sour taste in my mouth like nothing I've ever tasted before and like was just mentioned by someone, no one wants to pull these cards. No one.

[JasonLiebig]

No, I don't expect a god damn piece of art. I just expect something remotely presentable. Please, don't tell me what I want when I'm clearly stating something to the contrary. This card left a sour taste in my mouth like nothing I've ever tasted before and like was just mentioned by someone, no one wants to pull these cards. No one.

But, that's a  perfectly presentable SKETCH. 

You want more than a sketch.  That's all.  I showed you a sketch by Picasso, that is not his finished work, and is of a line that, on the surface, many of us here could draw. 

But if what you want is a tight piece of art, done with ink, a sketch may never be good enough.  Sketches are often loose, sometimes sloppy, and I guess, according to your standards, not always "remotely presentable".  But that's what sketches oftentimes ARE, even by great artists  So, don't get mad at someone delivering a sketch, on their sketch card. 

Look, it may turn out that, for fans to be happy, they're going to have to find sketch artists that are of the Jay Lynch model.  He's a guy who cranks out nice, tight, fun, illustrative little drawings.  That are NOT loose. 

I just think it's important to be clear about our discussion, that's all.  I think the definition of what a "sketch" is, is being twisted around unfairly. 

So, the desire is to get sketch artists who sketch tight, not loose.  That leave less to the the imagination, and put more on the paper.  Is it fair to say, in your opinion, that's what people want.

[RedBeans]

I know they wont, but I wish some of the actual artists would weigh in on this issue...I think Wheaton once stated that he does his sketches with the mindset of drawing something he himself would like to pull...if the Z sketches were in packs and he had to do like 1000 of them (look at the garbage sketches from the Star Wars Galaxy 7) then the shit he's drawing for OS3 and PC8 would be acceptable but for the very pricey LE like this I'd expect something more.....

[NEZHEAD42]

I agree, who would really want to pull one of these. When pictures of the JZ sketches started showing up in posts and on ebay over the weekend, I started to pray that when my order arrived on monday, that I would not pull a JZ sketch. It is clear that the effort put into them is a lot lower than the other artists. I was actually dreading a little bit, opening the order monday night, because I was afraid of a JZ sketch. For $45, this should not be. Remember that when Bhob's first run of sketches showed up, there was a bit of an outcry on the lack of quality. Now Bhob's sketches are some of the coolest of OLDS3. He stepped up and produced some awesome sketches. JZ is an awesome artist, his WP sketches just don't show it.

[FourRoses]

But, that's a  perfectly presentable SKETCH. 

You want more than a sketch.  That's all.  I showed you a sketch by Picasso, that is not his finished work, and is of a line that, on the surface, many of us here could draw. 

But if what you want is a tight piece of art, done with ink, a sketch may never be good enough.  Sketches are often loose, sometimes sloppy, and I guess, according to your standards, not always "remotely presentable".  But that's what sketches oftentimes ARE, even by great artists  So, don't get mad at someone delivering a sketch, on their sketch card. 

How many other examples of Z sketches will we see that end up looking poor? I'd tend to agree with your position if this were a rare deal but it isn't. Unfortunately is seems to be the norm.

The minority in this discussion is you. Most here aren't impressed with or looking to pull cards from this artist and you claim some of us want more artsy fartsy sketches. For this discussion, you are flat out wrong. Topps doesn't have to resort to drastic measures like you suggest with getting more Lynch-type artists. Just look at all of the past sketches from the current PC series, OS3, etc.., Have you seen anything resembling this type of "quality?"

[JasonLiebig]

How many other examples of Z sketches will we see that end up looking poor? I'd tend to agree with your position if this were a rare deal but it isn't. Unfortunately is seems to be the norm.

The minority in this discussion is you. Most here aren't impressed with or looking to pull cards from this artist and you claim some of us want more artsy fartsy sketches. For this discussion, you are flat out wrong. Topps doesn't have to resort to drastic measures like you suggest with getting more Lynch-type artists. Just look at all of the past sketches from the current PC series, OS3, etc.., Have you seen anything resembling this type of "quality?"

I do think some artists have come on, and perhaps not realized the deal.  I seem to recall not being wowed by other artists in past series, but finding their current sketches to be far more.... delightful.  So, maybe the fact is, these guys are a bit in a vacuum in their studios, and if they don't know what "the deal is" they just do the assignment - draw some sketches on cards.   

So.... even this guy, who has been a bit vilified here (maybe that's too harsh), even he might do something different, when he realizes that the standard is not quite "just a sketch" with regard to these. 

[deadpresidentsvisa]

At least if you guys are going to demand this:  Admit that the expectation is no longer for sketches.  You demand something closer to a finished illustration.  Call it what it is. 

You're condemning this guy based on unrealistic expectations.   Did you see the Picasso sketch?  I don't know what you think of his work, but most folks consider him a pretty great artist, and that's what he called a sketch.  So, I'll go with his definition over a Wacky collector.  Which isn't to insult any of us here.

It is to change the definition of the discussion.  Let's call this what it is:  It's a demand that every artist do more than just a sketch.  Is that unreasonable?  I don't know.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  But, based on the fact that  so many artist ARE doing more than just a sketch, it shouldn't come as a surprise. 

The USA is still in a recession and for $45.00 to $50.00 a pop members want something better than what JZ is "creating",if you polled forum members they would say they would like to pull a color card but they know the odds are against that.

[weirdo1]

Joe Simko.... Look what you've done!  I hope you're proud of yourself! 

[deadpresidentsvisa]

I know they wont, but I wish some of the actual artists would weigh in on this issue...I think Wheaton once stated that he does his sketches with the mindset of drawing something he himself would like to pull...if the Z sketches were in packs and he had to do like 1000 of them (look at the garbage sketches from the Star Wars Galaxy 7) then the shit he's drawing for OS3 and PC8 would be acceptable but for the very pricey LE like this I'd expect something more.....

It's funny/strange how the artists very rarely chime in, has Mr. Jasperson turned into a power grubbing dictator ?

[FourRoses]

So.... even this guy, who has been a bit vilified here (maybe that's too harsh), even he might do something different, when he realizes that the standard is not quite "just a sketch" with regard to these. 

That wording is too harsh because this is nothing personal. We just don't like the cards. You've mentioned multiple times how you think you know what we want but I'll point you to the initial series and the sketch cards included with them. Camera's work has changed substantially over the subsequent pieces but even the basic sketches he did way back then were still nicely done and appreciated. Me personally, I don't need anything outrageous in order to be pleased. I've gotten some very nice ones over the years but that's not necessarily the determining factor on how I view a card.

[koduck]

It's funny/strange how the artists very rarely chime in, has Mr. Jasperson turned into a power grubbing dictator ?

Ok, I'll chime in. Let me say first that Mike Jaspersen is a great guy to work for. He has a huge amount of respect for the artists (and fans) and thanks to him, we all get to enjoy great wacky products (old school, postcards, etc).

As far as the quality of sketch cards, I find the question intriguing. It's kind of like asking why an automobile manufacturer doesn't make every car a luxury sedan. For my part, I just like to have fun when I'm drawing the cards. Especially if it's a character that means something to me. And sometimes I'm in the zone, sometimes not. If I'm pressed for time, I may spend 10 minutes on a sketch. Sometimes I spend so much time on a card, I forget what time it is! I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there's no precise science to this. The fact that fans have embraced sketch cards is great. I don't think anyone expected that when we first introduced them in postcards one. Since then, seeing how much value fans put in them, I've tried to raise my game to make each card enjoyable. I can't speak for the other artists, but I'm certain that they all share a similar sentiment. Ok, I've chimed in.

[Hustler08]

I've seen some great artist sketches, that I guess I could simulate.  I can imitate Al Pacino, too... But I don't get an Oscar.    You want a drawing or an illustration.  Not a sketch.  I get it, lots of artists have been providing that.  

Just because I can scream "You can't handle the truth!" does not make me Jack Nicholson.  Nor does it diminish his performance.  If someone can draw as well as an artist can sketch, no argument is made.  I get it, but it doesn't prove anything.  He's sketching.  The fact is, he can draw or paint better than you can, which is why he got the sketch gig.  Its as simple as that.

yea but doesn't excuse the fact that they could SUCK!!!he has a right to his opinion...that's it...

[RedBeans]

Ok, I'll chime in. Let me say first that Mike Jaspersen is a great guy to work for. He has a huge amount of respect for the artists (and fans) and thanks to him, we all get to enjoy great wacky products (old school, postcards, etc).

As far as the quality of sketch cards, I find the question intriguing. It's kind of like asking why an automobile manufacturer doesn't make every car a luxury sedan. For my part, I just like to have fun when I'm drawing the cards. Especially if it's a character that means something to me. And sometimes I'm in the zone, sometimes not. If I'm pressed for time, I may spend 10 minutes on a sketch. Sometimes I spend so much time on a card, I forget what time it is! I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there's no precise science to this. The fact that fans have embraced sketch cards is great. I don't think anyone expected that when we first introduced them in postcards one. Since then, seeing how much value fans put in them, I've tried to raise my game to make each card enjoyable. I can't speak for the other artists, but I'm certain that they all share a similar sentiment. Ok, I've chimed in.

You 'da man Neil!!!  Just want to say thanks for your work on WP and GPK!!!

Edit:  Just to illustrate Neil's point, note Simko's evolution from GPK Flashback 1 to now....remarkable...maybe JZ can follow suit

[JasonLiebig]

yea but doesn't excuse the fact that they could SUCK!!!he has a right to his opinion...that's it...

Everyone has a right to their opinion.  But when I read someone saying that since they've had "bad" sketch card pulls, they are going to leave the hobby, I feel like it's becoming a bit nonsensical. 

Maybe my sense of what an artist's sketch is supposed to look like, is outdated, in the world of sketch cards as the new chase card. 

Maybe once you've sat with Michael Golden and had him sketch up designs for covers or peeked in on John Buscema finishing up pages in your own office, everything else just seems kinda the same. 

[JasonLiebig]

You 'da man Neil!!!  Just want to say thanks for your work on WP and GPK!!!

Edit:  Just to illustrate Neil's point, note Simko's evolution from GPK Flashback 1 to now....remarkable...maybe JZ can follow suit

Thank you for bringing this up.  I do think that a lot of artists don't realize how a sketch card, these days, seems to require a bit more than "just a sketch".