Author Topic: Wacky Packages Tees  (Read 25347 times)

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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2010, 10:52:15 PM »
If it's really the case that nobody noticed any of the images were Greg's, then I apologize. I do find it difficult to believe, because I (like you) merely gave the front page a cursory glance, and it was obvious to me just from that. There was a parade of Greg's images moving across the screen, tough to miss, but maybe everyone was mesmerized by the Old School sketch card images and just didn't notice anything else.
More annoying to me was that we all already defended ourselves for this exact issue when greg called us all dipshits so having to go through it again with you is tiresome.  You complain when I say there are undeniable patterns of your seeming to be a mouthpiece for greg yet time and time again, you make comments that match that pattern.  You are entitled to disagree that the pattern exists and I am entitled to call it out.  It is clear we disagree on this point so no need to debate your motive on in effect rehashing the dipshits issue.

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Offline slamjim

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2010, 12:00:43 AM »
If it's really the case that nobody noticed any of the images were Greg's, then I apologize. I do find it difficult to believe, because I (like you) merely gave the front page a cursory glance, and it was obvious to me just from that. There was a parade of Greg's images moving across the screen, tough to miss, but maybe everyone was mesmerized by the Old School sketch card images and just didn't notice anything else.

Didn't you work on some of these images? If that was the case that would make you way more sensitive to what they are.

I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe that most people who collect Wacky stickers and have probably looked at their stickers hundreds of times would notice that a sticker image posted on a website that they barely glanced at, that had some kind of drop shadow effect (which was probably not even noticed), was specifically someone else's doctored image. Not to mention (but again I have to) that I (and apparently some others here) have mentioned that Greg's image area was not something that we really ever looked at or even needed to look at. That area is really for newbies and guests. If your hardcore those images are not really heavy reading material.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2010, 08:36:49 AM »

I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe that most people who collect Wacky stickers and have probably looked at their stickers hundreds of times would notice that a sticker image posted on a website that they barely glanced at, that had some kind of drop shadow effect (which was probably not even noticed), was specifically someone else's doctored image. Not to mention (but again I have to) that I (and apparently some others here) have mentioned that Greg's image area was not something that we really ever looked at or even needed to look at. That area is really for newbies and guests. If your hardcore those images are not really heavy reading material.

Of course I don't expect anyone to recognize sticker scans. It's the full box and unopened pack scans that were immediately obvious to me. Especially the full boxes, which no one else has ever had pictures of and which were displayed on Greg's forum in recent months. But if people say they didn't recognize anything as
Greg's I'll accept that.

I look at Greg's images all the time, but if you're not into things like looking at packs and sheets I can see where you might not visit too often.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2010, 09:03:53 AM »
Of course I don't expect anyone to recognize sticker scans. It's the full box and unopened pack scans that were immediately obvious to me. Especially the full boxes, which no one else has ever had pictures of and which were displayed on Greg's forum in recent months. But if people say they didn't recognize anything as
Greg's I'll accept that.

I look at Greg's images all the time, but if you're not into things like looking at packs and sheets I can see where you might not visit too often.
How often are greg's pack and sheets pages updated?  twice a year?  I don't even understand your premise that since you are "into" these things that you view the same images "all the time".  This doesn't sound very rational and certainly is a ridiculous premise to impose on the rest of the hobby.

So, in the barely 48 hours from the time the WOW website was made available to the public primarily through a new forum that people were getting used to navigation, you decided that it was more reasonable that there was some sort of conspiracy that people noticed greg's stuff was lifted(which we all agree only had a shot of being obvious with THESE TWO AREAS you mention) and that they suddenly got honest("comfortable") about it after Mark said something. 

You decided the less reasonable explanation is that people didn't notice this and that when it was called out, they looked again and then agreed it was wrong which I will say with a high degree of confidence applies to just about all of us if not all of us.

If I were you, I would stop providing apologies that have an "*" relating to your disbelief that we all don't worship greg's website and images on an hourly basis and move on because your approach is starting to seem like Jay's approach of * laden acknowledgement.

One thing you might want to take note of, you at least are taking the time to understand a different point of view and are sorta providing an apology.  greg called us all dipshits, has never looked back and is totally comfortable that he is 100% justified in doing so.
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2010, 09:53:57 AM »
How often are greg's pack and sheets pages updated?  twice a year?  I don't even understand your premise that since you are "into" these things that you view the same images "all the time".  This doesn't sound very rational and certainly is a ridiculous premise to impose on the rest of the hobby.

It has nothing to do with being updated. I'm obviously very consumed with unopened packs, sheet positions and the like and have gone back time and time again to look at the sheet and pack scans while thinking about different things. I'm not imposing anything on the rest of the hobby, Dave implied only newbies and guests would ever look at Greg's images and I pointed myself out as an exception to that premise.

So, in the barely 48 hours from the time the WOW website was made available to the public primarily through a new forum that people were getting used to navigation, you decided that it was more reasonable that there was some sort of conspiracy that people noticed greg's stuff was lifted(which we all agree only had a shot of being obvious with THESE TWO AREAS you mention) and that they suddenly got honest("comfortable") about it after Mark said something.

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy. Most people on the forum (often, myself included) would rather shy away from controversy and make a positive comment, so I think they (we) sometimes look the other way to avoid unpleasantness. Maybe some people did that, maybe not, I obviously have no proof one way or the other.

And, at the risk of belaboring the point, these TWO AREAS did not have to be searched out, all the random images from the site (including these) were floating by on the front page.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 11:17:34 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline Sue Mee

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2010, 10:22:11 AM »
And, at the risking of belaboring the point, these TWO AREAS did not have to be searched out, all the random images from the site (including these) were floating by on the front page.


The disproportionate amount of attention you devote to this event (that was rectified long ago) is transparent.  Do you really think that what Jay did was way worse than somebody knowingly selling Flashback boxes to hobbyists knowing full well that they probably don't have a gold in them?

Or do you really think what Jay did was worse than someone trying to strike a deal with Topps so that they are the exception to the Old School on-line exclusive thereby shutting out all of the regular distributors?  

I think these two things are way worse because they were motivated by profit, greed and selfishness.  


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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2010, 11:16:27 AM »
The disproportionate amount of attention you devote to this event (that was rectified long ago) is transparent.  Do you really think that what Jay did was way worse than somebody knowingly selling Flashback boxes to hobbyists knowing full well that they probably don't have a gold in them?

Or do you really think what Jay did was worse than someone trying to strike a deal with Topps so that they are the exception to the Old School on-line exclusive thereby shutting out all of the regular distributors?  

I think these two things are way worse because they were motivated by profit, greed and selfishness.  




The only reason I'm continuing to post about this at all is because Ernie continues to pick apart my responses and I feel I have to clarify them or allow myself to be defined by him.

As I've told Ernie, I don't see the point in comparing "how bad" totally unrelated things are. Is your point to prove my "bias" like Ernie constantly tries to? Am I supposed to be an ass-kisser toward Alfrey now too? I'm sorry, but I'm really getting lost with the point of all this. I posted about this originally because it bothered me. That doesn't mean it's objectively worse than anything else, just that it was up there for me. I am happy to let it go provided I don't have to endure any more badgering.

Offline Sue Mee

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2010, 11:29:29 AM »
The only reason I'm continuing to post about this at all is because Ernie continues to pick apart my responses and I feel I have to clarify them or allow myself to be defined by him.

As I've told Ernie, I don't see the point in comparing "how bad" totally unrelated things are. Is your point to prove my "bias" like Ernie constantly tries to? Am I supposed to be an ass-kisser toward Alfrey now too? I'm sorry, but I'm really getting lost with the point of all this. I posted about this originally because it bothered me. That doesn't mean it's objectively worse than anything else, just that it was up there for me. I am happy to let it go provided I don't have to endure any more badgering.

I'm not trying to badger you but yes, the point of comparisons is to imply you may not be as willing to rake Greg over the coals for doing worse things.  For me, that is the way you are coming across here.  You say "you posted about this because it bothered you".  I'm  simply asking you if these other events bothered you too.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2010, 11:55:31 AM »
I'm not trying to badger you but yes, the point of comparisons is to imply you may not be as willing to rake Greg over the coals for doing worse things.  For me, that is the way you are coming across here.  You say "you posted about this because it bothered you".  I'm  simply asking you if these other events bothered you too.

Either the other events didn't bother Dave or they did bother him and he chose not to say anything.  Interestingly, he may say the latter is because he doesn't like controversy yet it would be rather clumsy and clueless to think that continually suggesting that we purposely ignored the lifting of greg's images wouldn't spark controversy so to narrow down Dave's desire to avoid controversy, it is to avoid controversy WITH greg! 

I totally understand that desire as I have heard many said they fear controvesry with greg like death.

I draw the same conclusion from either possibility that Dave has a more critical eye towards events when greg plays the victim card and it irks him that each time he does it, I call it out.  I couldn't call it out if the pattern wasn't repeating like a broken record.

In summary, it is EQUALLY clear cut that greg's images were lifted which wasn't cool as is it that we were all wrongly accused of looking the other way.  I vote both as being wrong(the image lifting and the unfounded accusation of the group) and I feel anyone who is spending time lamenting one more than the other is biased.  As much as I tend to be biased against greg, I wholeheartedly have felt taking his images is ethically wrong per a standard set by this hobby.
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Offline Jean Nutty

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2010, 11:58:10 AM »
GREAT POST!!  Obviously, we are never going to get an "I'm sorry" from greg for his being out of line in calling us all dipshits and blaming us all for Jay's website.
I’ve been smoking some sweet herb today and feel the need to pipe in with a brief cotton-mouth comment.

When Greg was posting a while back, I couldn’t stay focused long enough to read all of his posts because they were a bit redundant and crazy, (I know, who am I to talk!?), but I did try to skim all of his messages, curious to see if he would ever slip in an I'm sorry somewhere…. maybe buried at the end of a post, maybe a tiny fragment of an apology or an obtuse hint of an I’m sorry. I watched, and one day I saw sorry at the end of one of his posts, and immediately stopped to read the paragraph, and realized Greg was calling someone/some people sorry. If I searched all of Charboy’s posts for the word sorry, would any of the results include the word I'm? I’ve missed zillions of Greg’s post’s, but I’m sorry doesn’t seem to be a word permutation that occurs frequently for him.

I’m sorry to dredge that up - just had to get that off my chest. Here, to lighten the mood a little . . .
[expando]http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8868/whirlpooltime0421196701.jpg[/expando]
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Offline RonZombie

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2010, 12:00:22 PM »
Either the other events didn't bother Dave or they did bother him and he chose not to say anything.  Interestingly, he may say the latter is because he doesn't like controversy yet it would be rather clumsy and clueless to think that continually suggesting that we purposely ignored the lifting of greg's images wouldn't spark controversy so to narrow down Dave's desire to avoid controversy, it is to avoid controversy WITH greg! 

I totally understand that desire as I have heard many said they fear controvesry with greg like death.

I draw the same conclusion from either possibility that Dave has a more critical eye towards events when greg plays the victim card and it irks him that each time he does it, I call it out.  I couldn't call it out if the pattern wasn't repeating like a broken record.

In summary, it is EQUALLY clear cut that greg's images were lifted which wasn't cool as is it that we were all wrongly accused of looking the other way.  I vote both as being wrong(the image lifting and the unfounded accusation of the group) and I feel anyone who is spending time lamenting one more than the other is biased.  As much as I tend to be biased against greg, I wholeheartedly have felt taking his images is ethically wrong per a standard set by this hobby.

I agree...very well put Ernie!
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Offline RonZombie

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2010, 12:03:49 PM »
I’ve been smoking some sweet herb today and feel the need to pipe in with a brief cotton-mouth comment.

When Greg was posting a while back, I couldn’t stay focused long enough to read all of his posts because they were a bit redundant and crazy, (I know, who am I to talk!?), but I did try to skim all of his messages, curious to see if he would ever slip in an I'm sorry somewhere…. maybe buried at the end of a post, maybe a tiny fragment of an apology or an obtuse hint of an I’m sorry. I watched, and one day I saw sorry at the end of one of his posts, and immediately stopped to read the paragraph, and realized Greg was calling someone/some people sorry. If I searched all of Charboy’s posts for the word sorry, would any of the results include the word I'm? I’ve missed zillions of Greg’s post’s, but I’m sorry doesn’t seem to be a word permutation that occurs frequently for him.

I’m sorry to dredge that up - just had to get that off my chest. Here, to lighten the mood a little . . .
[expando]http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8868/whirlpooltime0421196701.jpg[/expando]
Ernie, do you have anything in your living room that you’d call Mongolian Modern or Kuwait Colonial?!

I'm getting ready to indulge in some "Sweet Stuff" myself!!! :o
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2010, 12:22:40 PM »
You say "you posted about this because it bothered you".  I'm  simply asking you if these other events bothered you too.


I'm kind of in a no-win situation. Since my motives are constantly being scrutinized, no matter what I say it will be questioned or disbelieved. But here is the truth:

1. On Greg's dealings with Topps, I honestly had no idea about the details at all until the postings he made here. But from what I read, no, it doesn't bother me too much. He can ask for whatever he wants, whatever his motives, and Topps can say yes or no, so I don't see it as such a big deal.

2. As for cherry-picking the boxes, it bothered me at first, but after some more consideration, I honestly think Topps is the one at fault if anyone. It should be their responsibility to ensure equal probabilities within units that can be broken up. Otherwise, they should print "only for sale as a case; do not sell individually" on each box. I think it is much less bothersome than the numerous people who admitted to cherry-picking magnet packs, since that was being done to a certainty rather than just guessing. Would it be wrong for me in 1973 to research pack collation and then intentionally buy all the packs I could find that I concluded were likely to include a Band-Ache? It lowers the probability of others obtaining one. I certainly don't see anything wrong with that.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2010, 01:01:51 PM »

Ernie, do you have anything in your living room that you’d call Mongolian Modern or Kuwait Colonial?!

LOL, no but I do collect old air conditioners and have them sitting in various locations in my living room and yes, they do go with all styles!
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2010, 01:12:57 PM »
I'm kind of in a no-win situation. Since my motives are constantly being scrutinized, no matter what I say it will be questioned or disbelieved. But here is the truth:

1. On Greg's dealings with Topps, I honestly had no idea about the details at all until the postings he made here. But from what I read, no, it doesn't bother me too much. He can ask for whatever he wants, whatever his motives, and Topps can say yes or no, so I don't see it as such a big deal.

2. As for cherry-picking the boxes, it bothered me at first, but after some more consideration, I honestly think Topps is the one at fault if anyone. It should be their responsibility to ensure equal probabilities within units that can be broken up. Otherwise, they should print "only for sale as a case; do not sell individually" on each box. I think it is much less bothersome than the numerous people who admitted to cherry-picking magnet packs, since that was being done to a certainty rather than just guessing. Would it be wrong for me in 1973 to research pack collation and then intentionally buy all the packs I could find that I concluded were likely to include a Band-Ache? It lowers the probability of others obtaining one. I certainly don't see anything wrong with that.
I think you missed some points but let's just focus on the searching packs analogy.  It would be wrong if you pulled the bandache packs, recollated the packs to make some "full" boxes and sold them without disclosing that the packs in effect have been searched.  Don't you feel it almost statistically impossible that ZERO boxes or cases sold on ebay have had a disclaimer that they boxes or packs are leftovers from cherry picking?  Where are all of those cases and boxes if they aren't being sold into the market?

Blaming Topps for this is ridiculous. It is impossible for collation and distribution to be truly random, I would assume your mathematical backround makes you realize how challenging the concept of true random generation really is.   Exploitation of this imperfection is in the hands of the collectors and dealers and they own responsibility for actions taken in this area.

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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2010, 08:37:45 PM »
It would be wrong if you pulled the bandache packs, recollated the packs to make some "full" boxes and sold them without disclosing that the packs in effect have been searched.

Sure, if I did what you describe that would clearly be wrong, as the implication is that what is being sold is an original full box when it is not. That's not the case here: the box being sold IS an original full box. If Topps is going to publish odds for golds, the implication is that any pack, from any box, bearing that statement has those odds. If that's not the case, they need to clarify.

Is it wrong to sell individual packs from these boxes too? On those packs, Topps states odds that are evidently not correct for those packs.

Exploitation of this imperfection is in the hands of the collectors and dealers and they own responsibility for actions taken in this area.

I don't disagree completely. I certainly wouldn't sell such a box to a friend. Let's say I sell the box cheaper due to its status. Ultimately, it's impossible to keep track of the box's pedigree, and it will seem like any other box. Wouldn't you agree Topps is the only party that can accurately control and describe how likely it is for a given box to contain a gold? Asking hobbyists to keep track of this is unrealistic and unfair.

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2010, 09:31:59 PM »
I think what you guys are getting to here is that it is wrong to intentionally mislead.   Especially when cash is on the line.

To to pull magnets and rebuild "full boxes" that you know are devoid of magnets is as messed up as re-sealing unopened packs.

The example of Mark "cherrypicking" boxes with gold flashbacks is not the same thing.  He didn't intentionally mislead, or even set out to do any cherrypicking at all.  He just figured out some odds along the way.  It's key to note that, in retrospect, he realized he could have provided more complete information, and thereby have made his transactions more fair. 

It's closer to a situation wher you think a certain sticker isn't worth a lot, telling that to someone, then buying the sticker from the person, only to find out months later, that it IS worth a lot.  Maybe not exactly, but similar.

With regards to t-shirt guy and to Jay's use of Greg's scans.  I don't believe Jay OR the t-shirt guy set out to intentionally mislead anyone (which doesn't make their actions "okay" but it's an interesting clarification).  I'm not going to go back and re-read everything so I COULD BE WRONG, but did Jay ever deny he was using Greg's scans?  Did he ever try to claim that Greg's scans were his?   I think he just maintained (and may still) that it was "okay to use them" in the way he did (because he touched them up, color-corrected, etc) - at least until it was brought to his attention that, legality or not, it wasn't ethical.  At least to a great number of us (me included). 

Similarly, the bootleg t-shirt guy was straight up about what he was doing, he just didn't seem to be bothered that it was in violation of copyright, and an existing licensing deal for Wacky Packages t-shirts.  The t-shirt guy should stop selling bootleg shirts.  If he wants to make them for friends, that's probably still in violation, but no one will ever know, or try to stop him.   Sounds like he might not be stopping, which IS pretty messed up. 

Jay should have taken down Greg's scans, and I believe he did so pretty quickly.   I'm honestly not sure if he ever tried to mislead anyone, but I don't think so.   
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2010, 08:25:09 AM »
To clarify my comments above:

It would definitely be unethical of me to pull packs from a full box, replace them, and offer the box for sale as original. The analogous thing in Mark's situation would have been to pull the "good" boxes from the case, replace them with other spare boxes, and offer the CASE as original. This would clearly have been wrong.

His selling the "non-good" boxes off separately would be equivalent to me selling the other packs from the 1st series box after I had pulled the Band-Ache packs. I would be selling packs I know likely don't contain a Band-Ache without disclosing that. I'd like votes as to whether that's wrong. I don't think it's wrong because I'm selling a pack, I'm not making a guarantee that it is from an unsearched box, or any claim as to its contents except that it is legitimate and unopened.

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2010, 10:21:54 AM »
To clarify my comments above:

It would definitely be unethical of me to pull packs from a full box, replace them, and offer the box for sale as original. The analogous thing in Mark's situation would have been to pull the "good" boxes from the case, replace them with other spare boxes, and offer the CASE as original. This would clearly have been wrong.

His selling the "non-good" boxes off separately would be equivalent to me selling the other packs from the 1st series box after I had pulled the Band-Ache packs. I would be selling packs I know likely don't contain a Band-Ache without disclosing that. I'd like votes as to whether that's wrong. I don't think it's wrong because I'm selling a pack, I'm not making a guarantee that it is from an unsearched box, or any claim as to its contents except that it is legitimate and unopened.

I think the scenario you present IS more analogous.  But there is a difference:  I think what Mark and the rest of us began to realize after the fact is that while the idea of a "searched" box is common and well-understood to hobbyists, the idea of a "searched" case is something that was new to a lot of folks.

Given the hunt for "golds" and the like, and the possibility that cases could be searched in this way, it makes sense to bring the idea of searched cases into the hobbyist lexicon.   It could change the long-term selling-value of unopened boxes, and how we buy boxes from cracked cases, especially from folks we don't know.  Whether a box is sealed is no longer the only concern, at least where the hope of ultra-limited chase cards is concerned, and where collation can be somewhat predicted.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 10:24:01 AM by JasonLiebig »
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2010, 04:07:06 PM »
To clarify my comments above:

It would definitely be unethical of me to pull packs from a full box, replace them, and offer the box for sale as original. The analogous thing in Mark's situation would have been to pull the "good" boxes from the case, replace them with other spare boxes, and offer the CASE as original. This would clearly have been wrong.

His selling the "non-good" boxes off separately would be equivalent to me selling the other packs from the 1st series box after I had pulled the Band-Ache packs. I would be selling packs I know likely don't contain a Band-Ache without disclosing that. I'd like votes as to whether that's wrong. I don't think it's wrong because I'm selling a pack, I'm not making a guarantee that it is from an unsearched box, or any claim as to its contents except that it is legitimate and unopened.
You are not talking about the selling of a random pack, you are talking about a pack whose primary value would be a specific chase card that is sought, ie golds.  It would be unethical to sell a pack know its odds of having the chase card are zero.  Series 1 original packs is a bad example as they are rare in themselves.
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