ANS8 Sketch ***SPOILERS***

[deadpresidentsvisa]

BK......do you think Jay's Doomstone painting holds no secondary market value?

[jleonard1967]

Something is only worth what someone else is willing to buy it for.  Everything has a value based upon supply and demand.  Whether it is real or artificial demand that is immaterial,  what is "gold" to one person could be a "hunk of metal" to another. 

[BumChex]

Something is only worth what someone else is willing to buy it for.  Everything has a value based upon supply and demand.  Whether it is real or artificial demand that is immaterial,  what is "gold" to one person could be a "hunk of metal" to another. 

Exactly! My post is just an observation.

[JasonLiebig]

I've spoken to several sketch collectors and none of them collect art. The rational is the art is not an actual card that you collect. Art to them has no real collecting value. It's a strange mindset to wrap your head around. I collect both.
I've asked guys why not just get Jay to do a color art of your favorite character and the response is 'there is no known value to that piece so if you ever wanted to resell it you may not get your money back'. The truth is it wouldn't be part of an actual card series and therefor looked at as a one of a kind misc. item with no market value.
I think the sketches are really cool and unique. Sure there really isn't any set value to those either but it's something unique that is part of an actual series. People trying to get certain sketches put a value on the ones they like. Not everyone has the same opinion.

I don't claim to have any special understanding of these things, but I get why folks might value an "official" sketch more than a commissioned one.  Similarly, someone might ask whey you would need to own an original 70's Wacky Sticker, when you could own the Abrams book, which contains the exact same parodies and artwork, for a fraction of the price.   I know that the vintage nature of things matters to people as well, but all of these aspects are personal taste.

Most folks might get plenty of nostalgia from a $14 book, and never feel the need to spend thousands, to have the same pieces of artwork on 30 year old sticker stock.   But for some people, having an "official" sketch or having a "vintage official" sticker matters.   

[bandaches]

I never managed to get an ANS7 sketch card, and so have no intention of spending a bundle for an ANS8 sketch card - my hope of having one ANS7 sketch example in my set is dead, so why spend money now with ANS8, since I'd still have a set without an example?  That's a completist attitude, coming to haunt Topps.

As Feetena said, this is not a new phenomenon.  Since the late 90's, with other non-sports cards, if I'm interested in a set I usually just buy a base set for cheap.  But, ANS Wackys will always be different for me as far as reasonable insert sets, and I'll want subsets like magnets, lenticulars, and whatever other subsets they come up with like the movie sets.  And, I'm going to want multiples, for sticking, putting on the fridge, giving away, and just having fun with.  But, I'm not going to play the major chase game, especially since Wackys have now attracted the professional pack searchers.......

I've decided to drop ANS sketches as a desired part of my collection altogether.  I now seek one from each produced old school and post card set.  If those sets start to make sketches impossible to own, I will drop my quest to get those too. 

[bandaches]

Sue Mee didn't characterize anything as being true or important. He only suggested collectors can find better art for their money, however the collector may interpret "better". Anyone who argues that you can't find better illustrations for 2K than Wacky sketch cards is ill informed. The whole reason sketch cards got hot was because card collectors began to fancy themselves as art collectors. The problem was they didn't know anything about collecting art. So they tried to apply their card collecting expertise, which doesn't jive with art collecting. Dilettantes like Brad say Jay Lynch is one of the most important artists of our time. Jay is a good cartoonist. But to anyone educated in 20th century illustration that is an incredibly naive statement that reveals the tunnel vision some collectors have for Wacky Packs.

Speaking of ill informed, what evidence do you have to support this statement "The whole reason sketch cards got hot was because card collectors began to fancy themselves as art collectors".

Hoppymeal sketch is rather lame compared to almost any Jay Lynch sketch, yet Hoppy meal sketch just sold for like $250.  It is another form of chase card, your banging your head against your desk in disgust assuming it is untalented art critics collecting blindly just doesn't seem to hold water.,

[bandaches]

I think Mark did a pretty good job of explaining why he thinks collecting and paying big bucks for sketch cards is less reasonable than collecting ludlows or marathon bar wrappers:

Unlike ludlows or Marathon wrappers, the sketch cards are being produced TODAY to cater to a specific market of buyers. As such, they serve an identical purpose to sketches/art commissioned by collectors from those self-same artists, which enjoyed very limited popularity over the many years Jay and others have been willing to produce them. Really, if Brad is such a fan of sketches based on their intrinsics, why hasn't he been collecting them for years on a commission basis?

In fact, while I'm sure sketch collectors like the sketches, what really drives them is a collector mentality. I want one sketch from each artist, I want an Engstrom of every different character, etc. As Jason would correctly say, there's nothing WRONG with that since they enjoy it. To me, there's also nothing wrong with discussing honestly the mindset behind it and its potential consequences to the hobby and to the sketch collectors.

Jason sees these discussions as trying to rain on people's parade, when it's really just more hobby discussion. 

I think Mark is way off the Mark....I agree that sketches fetch more money than is rational but his reasoning that the collectors are ill informed art crticis is off base and I suspect he has no real data to support that label of sketch collectors.  I agree with Jason that Mark's comment came off as arrogant.  It is unreasonable to think that reference to sketch collectors was not a put down.

[Plastered Peanut]

I commissioned Jay to do a Pupsi ink drawing with my little girl Penny Lane who had just passed away at the time.  He did a more-than-fantastic job, and I've got it hanging beside the few Norm Saunders originals I own.  To me, Jay's drawing is priceless and I could care less what someone else would pay for it.  I honestly don't get the "resell" mentality of wacky collectors.  I pay money for wackys because they mean something to me.  Period.  Simple.  If I wanted to buy something to resell for a profit, I'd buy stocks or gold.  Unfortunately, I bought stocks and not gold......but that's a different story!

[BumChex]

I think Mark is way off the Mark....I agree that sketches fetch more money than is rational but his reasoning that the collectors are ill informed art crticis is off base and I suspect he has no real data to support that label of sketch collectors.  I agree with Jason that Mark's comment came off as arrogant.  It is unreasonable to think that reference to sketch collectors was not a put down.

Mark, as an artist, hates sketches. He thinks they are doodles. Did you know that Camera spent about 20 hours painting the color sketches he posted? Jay's artist returns too many hours to do also so they are a bit more elaborate than doodles. Mark has already insulted Lynch by calling him as a good cartoonist and not a good artist. I think Jay is a great artist. I think his humor is fantastic. I'm sure the same can be said for Parisi. Almost every one of Parisi's OLDS2 sketches is hilarious.. All, very unique.
So Camera, Gross, Engstrom, Simko, & other artists that do both art and sketches are a bunch of schmucks? Is that what Mark is saying? Or is he saying we are all schmucks for buying their sketches but we are fine to buy their art? It's all so confusing.......

[BumChex]

I commissioned Jay to do a Pupsi ink drawing with my little girl Penny Lane who had just passed away at the time.  He did a more-than-fantastic job, and I've got it hanging beside the few Norm Saunders originals I own.  To me, Jay's drawing is priceless and I could care less what someone else would pay for it.  I honestly don't get the "resell" mentality of wacky collectors.  I pay money for wackys because they mean something to me.  Period.  Simple.  If I wanted to buy something to resell for a profit, I'd buy stocks or gold.  Unfortunately, I bought stocks and not gold......but that's a different story!

Do you have a scan? I would love to see it. I had Jay do one of my kids about 5 years ago that is really cool. How old was Penny? What happened to her?

[Plastered Peanut]

Do you have a scan? I would love to see it. I had Jay do one of my kids about 5 years ago that is really cool. How old was Penny? What happened to her?

Penny was my baby girl that I adopted when she was about 8 weeks old...part of an abandoned litter found by a coworker in the boonies.  She lived to be 16 and was in great health her whole life until the last 3 months; in fact, on her 16th birthday she was still very spry!  I will try to post a scan here (never posted a a pic here!)...Jay I hope you don't mind but I love to share and you did such a wonderful job capturing her likeness from a handful of photos!

[Tic_Toc]

Penny was my baby girl that I adopted when she was about 8 weeks old...part of an abandoned litter found by a coworker in the boonies.  She lived to be 16 and was in great health her whole life until the last 3 months; in fact, on her 16th birthday she was still very spry!  I will try to post a scan here (never posted a a pic here!)...Jay I hope you don't mind but I love to share and you did such a wonderful job capturing her likeness from a handful of photos!

I'm really sorry that your dog passed away, but having her immortalized on a Jay Lynch Pupsi sketch is really cool!  We have a white standard poodle named Ellie Mae (after Ellie Mae Clampet; they have similar personalities).  And I would love to someday commision Jay to put our Ellie into a dog-related Wacky sketch.  I'll have to look through the vintage stuff and see what other cards might work (beside Grave Train or Choke Wagon of course).

[Plastered Peanut]

Do you have a scan? I would love to see it. I had Jay do one of my kids about 5 years ago that is really cool. How old was Penny? What happened to her?

Please post a scan of the drawing Jay did of your kids!

[Plastered Peanut]

Craig, it's worth every dollar!  Jay is such a great artist, and his ties to the wacky community are icing on the cake! 

[BumChex]

Penny was my baby girl that I adopted when she was about 8 weeks old...part of an abandoned litter found by a coworker in the boonies.  She lived to be 16 and was in great health her whole life until the last 3 months; in fact, on her 16th birthday she was still very spry!  I will try to post a scan here (never posted a a pic here!)...Jay I hope you don't mind but I love to share and you did such a wonderful job capturing her likeness from a handful of photos!

Loved the sketch. See it's not too tough to post sketches. I was thinking it was your daughter and not a family pet, though that doesn't make your loss any different. It's still tough to lose any family member. Great way to immortalize her with a fantastic sketch!

[BumChex]

Please post a scan of the drawing Jay did of your kids!

I'm traveling on biz right now but will try soon. I have to travel next week and have my sons B-Day Saturday so it might be a couple weeks. I have it framed and matted so it will probably be a photo. It's not a wacky, it's a portrait.

[ROID]

Dave,my Penny sends you and Corey a big doggie hug! Hope you two are well! Roger

[Porkie]

Very cool to have her immortalized on a Wacky!  

I'm really sorry that your dog passed away, but having her immortalized on a Jay Lynch Pupsi sketch is really cool!  We have a white standard poodle named Ellie Mae (after Ellie Mae Clampet; they have similar personalities).  And I would love to someday commision Jay to put our Ellie into a dog-related Wacky sketch.  I'll have to look through the vintage stuff and see what other cards might work (beside Grave Train or Choke Wagon of course).

You should have it somehow tie into the Beverly Hillbillies too -- perhaps the car? -- could be a fun combination.


There were some early sketch cards that definitely had the "doodle" look imo, but after PC7 and OS2 they have hit a whole new plateau. Heck, even my wife liked several of them and that says a LOT.

[Plan 9]

Speaking of ill informed, what evidence do you have to support this statement "The whole reason sketch cards got hot was because card collectors began to fancy themselves as art collectors".

It's my assessment of the comments posted by sketch collectors the last two years. I'm not so ill-informed as you think I am. Wait, didn't someone just finish explaining to me that calling someone ill-informed is an insult? Get 'em Jason!

[Plan 9]

Mark, as an artist, hates sketches. He thinks they are doodles. Did you know that Camera spent about 20 hours painting the color sketches he posted? Jay's artist returns too many hours to do also so they are a bit more elaborate than doodles. Mark has already insulted Lynch by calling him as a good cartoonist and not a good artist. I think Jay is a great artist. I think his humor is fantastic. I'm sure the same can be said for Parisi. Almost every one of Parisi's OLDS2 sketches is hilarious.. All, very unique.
So Camera, Gross, Engstrom, Simko, & other artists that do both art and sketches are a bunch of schmucks? Is that what Mark is saying? Or is he saying we are all schmucks for buying their sketches but we are fine to buy their art? It's all so confusing.......

The only insult here is your words entering my brain. Calling Jay a good cartoonist is an insult? Wow. I'll make a note of that. Better inform the cartoonists union. When did I ever say Jay is not a good artist? Of course he's a good artist! He's a clever writer too. I've never said anything to the contrary. And when the hell did I ever say I hate sketch cards? What I hate is the over glorification of them and the stupidity of driving values to a level that begs the question "if you want to pay big money for Wacky art then why not buy paintings or commissions?"  Several artists have done very impressive sketch cards including the ones in Neil's recent post. Those are the exceptions, not the rule. You don't measure things by their exceptions. Most sketch cards are not 20 hour detailed paintings.

Now, when you arrive at the idea that I'm calling all the Wacky artists schmucks, artists whose work I pay tens of thousands of dollars for, then you really have to stop and ask yourself these questions:
"Am I really reading Mark's posts?"
"Am I capable of logical conclusions?"

[Plan 9]

You really don't get why I would read arrogance and patronization into your assessment?  Well, I suppose I might expect that, as you are someone who spends so much time isolated working on his craft.  It's a lack of social awareness that comes from being your own boss.   

So, while you may not see calling someone naive and in the same paragraph describing them as a dilettante, folks who deal with people every day, have the awareness to see that it might not be the best way to go, when your goal is a productive discussion. 
 
For the record, I wasn't insulted...  I was explaining my response to your post to PaulMaul, who felt that you were bringing up a thoughtful discussion point about our hobby.  I felt you were dishing on a member, which gets in the way of real discussion.    

That said, I'll feel free to respond to any post even if you feel I'm responding for Brad (which I wasn't), as long as you start YOUR initial post off by retorting for Sue Mee...

"Sue Mee didn't characterize anything as being true or important. He only suggested collectors can find better art for their money..."

If we go around responding on behalf of others with the assumption they might be insulted we're going to have a lot of unnecessary battles. Is that really something you want to advocate?

Brad has demonstrated in his comments that he is naive about the world of illustration art. Are you bothered by my view or just the fact that I would be open and honest about my view? You act like "Naive" is in the same class as "asshole". That's unreasonable.

[deadpresidentsvisa]

Mark you are so right about at least 1 thing,Bummerchex has proven over and over he knows next to nothing about art and even less about buying art.He spends decent bucks on art that has text falling off and then he tells us all about it.
WAY TOO MUCH MONEY COMBINE THAT WITH IMPULSIVE BEHAVIOR AND WE READ THE RESULTS

[Plan 9]

I think Mark is way off the Mark....I agree that sketches fetch more money than is rational but his reasoning that the collectors are ill informed art crticis is off base and I suspect he has no real data to support that label of sketch collectors.  I agree with Jason that Mark's comment came off as arrogant.  It is unreasonable to think that reference to sketch collectors was not a put down.

I believed the sketch card market was a bubble and that it would soon break. I was right. So that earns credibility for my opinion of why it happened.

[Plan 9]

By the way Brad, if my use of "naive" and "dilettante" were insulting I apologize. I was just trying to make a point, not to insult you.

[JasonLiebig]

If we go around responding on behalf of others with the assumption they might be insulted we're going to have a lot of unnecessary battles. Is that really something you want to advocate?

Brad has demonstrated in his comments that he is naive about the world of illustration art. Are you bothered by my view or just the fact that I would be open and honest about my view? You act like "Naive" is in the same class as "asshole". That's unreasonable.

YOU are the one who chose to "respond on behalf of others" when you responded for SueMee, and you did that first.   So...er... just to bring the playground terminology to the fore:  you started it.  

I just find that dishing on members is, in the end, a pretty value-less activity, that starts a lot of "unnecessary battles".  I hope you can recognize that you're the one who initiated this kind of activity and would take responsibility for it, rather than simply, and once again, trying to criticize me for doing what you just did.  If you want to continue dishing on members, fine.  Dish away.  But don't try to mask your dishing in some cloak of "informed observation" and sound hobby discussion.  That wasn't about the status of art and sketches - it was about Brad.

But look, I also don't want to go round and round, and based on your written apology, insulting other members is not what you're actually interested in doing.   And I'm far more interested in talking about the hobby, than talking about us.   I also think you DO have a deep artistic knowledge with which to draw from and inform upon when you contribute here - and I'm always happy when you share that with us.  So with that, I'll leave it to someone else to take us back on-topic.

[BumChex]

Dilettantes like Brad say Jay Lynch is one of the most important artists of our time. Jay is a good cartoonist.

I read into this as you don't think too highly of Jay as an artist. You have said many times that the sketches are doodles. I do read most of what you write

[JasonLiebig]

I read into this as you don't think too highly of Jay as an artist. You have said many times that the sketches are doodles. I do read most of what you write

I'd ask Mark how much he is aware of Jay's significant contributions to the underground comics scene?  Jay may be a "good cartoonist" which he most certainly is, but his contributions to that artistic and cultural movement, and the part he played in it, cannot be diminished or dismissed.  He stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the giants in that world.   That's not about Wacky Packages, it's about so much more.  

But I'm not even that well-versed in it all - I just know enough to be delighted at how accessible Jay remains to the likes of us - Wacky Packages fans.  

[BumChex]

Mark you are so right about at least 1 thing,Bummerchex has proven over and over he knows next to nothing about art and even less about buying art.He spends decent bucks on art that has text falling off and then he tells us all about it.
WAY TOO MUCH MONEY COMBINE THAT WITH IMPULSIVE BEHAVIOR AND WE READ THE RESULTS

I do know that when you pay good money for art you shouldn't have to comment about letters falling off!

[koduck]

But I'm not even that well-versed in it all - I just know enough to be delighted at how accessible Jay remains to the likes of us - Wacky Packages fans.  

Jay is a cartoonist. He's also a painter, writer, poet, lyricist, satirist, humorist, philosopher and innovator - an artist in the truest sense of the word. Amazingly, he also loves to share his 50+ years of experience with the rest of us. Who could ask for anything more.

[Jean Nutty]

David, I’m sorry to hear about your Penny Lane.

Neat idea and great sketch. I like that Bury cans when finished was replaced with Penny deposit on this can

That there is a friggin’ gorgeous pull top on that can, yeah! That always takes me back, to Memory Lane

[Plastered Peanut]

Dave,my Penny sends you and Corey a big doggie hug! Hope you two are well! Roger

Roger, great to hear from you, and thank you! my friend!
Corey returns that big doggie hug and all the best to you, Matt, and the Mrs!
David

[Plastered Peanut]

I like that Bury cans when finished was replaced with Penny deposit on this can

Thanks for you post, Nutty:  Jay comes up with best tag lines!!  I was so proud and touched by what he had created for me!

[bandaches]

I believed the sketch card market was a bubble and that it would soon break. I was right. So that earns credibility for my opinion of why it happened.

Predicting the bubble bursting which was pretty much obvious to everyone doesn't mean you have a clue as the what drove sketch collectors to want sketches.  You really believe that because you stated the obvious about sketch prices falling means it gives your statement that sketch collectors are uninformed art collectors validity?  Wow....just wow.  You really think those same people didn't know they could spend $2000 on paintings?  You really think this wasn't driven by a need to hoard and be completists?  I state again, you are totally wrong in your assessment of the sketch collectors.

[Plan 9]

Predicting the bubble bursting which was pretty much obvious to everyone doesn't mean you have a clue as the what drove sketch collectors to want sketches.  You really believe that because you stated the obvious about sketch prices falling means it gives your statement that sketch collectors are uninformed art collectors validity?  Wow....just wow.  You really think those same people didn't know they could spend $2000 on paintings?  You really think this wasn't driven by a need to hoard and be completists?  I state again, you are totally wrong in your assessment of the sketch collectors.

Are you done jamming "you're wrong" down my throat?

[Plan 9]

YOU are the one who chose to "respond on behalf of others" when you responded for SueMee, and you did that first.   So...er... just to bring the playground terminology to the fore:  you started it.  

I just find that dishing on members is, in the end, a pretty value-less activity, that starts a lot of "unnecessary battles".  I hope you can recognize that you're the one who initiated this kind of activity and would take responsibility for it, rather than simply, and once again, trying to criticize me for doing what you just did.  If you want to continue dishing on members, fine.  Dish away.  But don't try to mask your dishing in some cloak of "informed observation" and sound hobby discussion.  That wasn't about the status of art and sketches - it was about Brad.

But look, I also don't want to go round and round, and based on your written apology, insulting other members is not what you're actually interested in doing.   And I'm far more interested in talking about the hobby, than talking about us.   I also think you DO have a deep artistic knowledge with which to draw from and inform upon when you contribute here - and I'm always happy when you share that with us.  So with that, I'll leave it to someone else to take us back on-topic.

Apparently you do want to go round and round. There was nothing wrong with my interpreting Sue Mee's post because it was benign. Unemotional. Taking offense on behalf of Brad is another story. Especially when you lay into me with 10,000 words about it. You were striking a match from the get go. You've had about 20 times more to say about my post to Brad than Brad did. In your dedication to the cause you've called me arrogant, patronizing, holier than thou, dishing on members and a recluse with a social disorder. Plus whatever else you might've said that you deleted in your obsessive rewrites. All this because I made a post you deemed impolite. No wait, worse than impolite. An affront to all mankind! I called someone naive and I'm going to Hell for it. And I know you'll be there as my eternal tormentor. Even after I apologized to Brad without knowing if he was offended in the first place you still have to keep harping on me you fucking harpy.