Are these people NUTS???

[bigtomi]

Hey, here's a bargain, eh? eBay auction: #235879661503

[RawGoo]

UGH.

[jleonard1967]

too bad it is only a 5.  I was sure with the white edges it would grade higher

[Beanball]

too bad it is only a 5.  I was sure with the white edges it would grade higher

A true .08 cent gem for sure😂

[drono]

I see these pop up on eBay every once in a while.  I'm just curious why PSA would label this as 1977 Topps when the copyright on the sticker clearly says 1976. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/316172359667
https://www.ebay.com/itm/396163284949
https://www.ebay.com/itm/396163280454

It's argued that the 16th series wasn't actually released until 1977, but nothing would indicate that from looking at the sticker itself.  The first one above doesn't even identify it as 16th Series, but the other two do.  Wouldn't just labeling it 16th Series be sufficient?  If the owner of the card told PSA it was 1977, wouldn't they do some research to see if labeling it as such would be misleading, especially on the first one?

[MoldRush]

I see these pop up on eBay every once in a while.  I'm just curious why PSA would label this as 1977 Topps when the copyright on the sticker clearly says 1976. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/316172359667
https://www.ebay.com/itm/396163284949
https://www.ebay.com/itm/396163280454

It's argued that the 16th series wasn't actually released until 1977, but nothing would indicate that from looking at the sticker itself.  The first one above doesn't even identify it as 16th Series, but the other two do.  Wouldn't just labeling it 16th Series be sufficient?  If the owner of the card told PSA it was 1977, wouldn't they do some research to see if labeling it as such would be misleading, especially on the first one?

Shortly after I started getting into comic books, the UPC barcodes started appearing on the covers sometime in 1976.  I remember it really well because I hated the intrusion onto the cover’s artwork.  I don’t think any OS Wacky wrappers or boxes had barcodes, but maybe the 16ths were somehow ‘in the system’ so to speak, based on the similar timeframe.

An example of the converse of this - as a kid I distinctly remember (and still have the cards) a Bazooka Joe card series being released around 1977, but it’s on the books as 1972 because of the Topps wrapper codes ending in 2.  Nowhere has the 1972 mythology been debunked, even with a 5-year gap.  It can’t be proven to have been issued later except from personal recall, because that particular series had no copyright date on the cards and the ‘Bazooka Joe’ title block on the comic side lacked the little numbering system they usually put on both the cards and the wax paper comics.  Why they would have delayed the release I have no idea, as other sets were released 1975, 1976 and 1978.  The 1975 set had the same puzzle backs as the ‘1977’ set but with different comics, but not sure if that’s relevant somehow.  And the gum in those ‘1977’ packs was super fresh, as my horrible dental history will attest to, so this wasn’t a case of some chintzy little store taking a long-lost 5-year old box of cards from a basement and throwing it on a shelf in 1977.  My brothers and I ripped so many packs at the time, and in all 4 flavors.  Kind of a rant I know, but it still annoys me when I see this described as a 1972 set.

[lcummins]

...An example of the converse of this - as a kid I distinctly remember (and still have the cards) a Bazooka Joe card series being released around 1977, but it’s on the books as 1972 because of the Topps wrapper codes ending in 2.  Nowhere has the 1972 mythology been debunked, even with a 5-year gap.  It can’t be proven to have been issued later except from personal recall, because that particular series had no copyright date on the cards and the ‘Bazooka Joe’ title block on the comic side lacked the little numbering system they usually put on both the cards and the wax paper comics.  Why they would have delayed the release I have no idea, as other sets were released 1975, 1976 and 1978.  The 1975 set had the same puzzle backs as the ‘1977’ set but with different comics, but not sure if that’s relevant somehow.  And the gum in those ‘1977’ packs was super fresh, as my horrible dental history will attest to, so this wasn’t a case of some chintzy little store taking a long-lost 5-year old box of cards from a basement and throwing it on a shelf in 1977.  My brothers and I ripped so many packs at the time, and in all 4 flavors.  Kind of a rant I know, but it still annoys me when I see this described as a 1972 set.

There was a numbered set in 1972 and an un-numbered set in very late 1972. The numbered set came first... we know this because the same cards were also issued by OPC and A&BC shortly after. I've seen reference to the un-numbered set being released (or re-released) in 1977, but have been unable to find any evidence of this after exhaustive research on all the "Bazooka Joe" card releases with "Big Bazooka Bubble Gum" packs. All evidence points to the un-numbered set being designed/greenlit in 1972... as you mentioned, there are several wrappers for 1972 with 1972 commodity codes, and were used for both the numbered and un-numbered sets. I also have images of a partial uncut sheet with commodity code 3-293-14-02-2. The stock number of 293 was for the original Fruit flavor bazooka gum and the revision code of 02 indicates this was the second version of the print sheet, with the first version most likely being the numbered series. Then there is also the premium offers... I looked at the "Initial Ring" offer from both 1972 series, 1975, 1976 and 1978 series and compared to the ring offer from various wax comic offers from the same years. If the un-numbered cards had been released or re-released in 1977, Topps would have updated the offer to the then current number of comics needed and shipping cost. Also, by 1975, the address to send in for premiums had changed from "St. Paul, Minn." to "Westbury, N.Y." so if the cards were released in 1977 it would have caused issues for Topps. So basically everything points to 1972 as the release year and nothing yet points to 1977... I'm not saying you are wrong, just that no evidence has turned up. About the only thing that would provide proof at this point would be an unopened pack with a 1977 commodity code that had un-numbered cards inside.

Here are images of the partial uncut sheet and ring offer comparison...

Partial uncut sheet front...


Partial uncut sheet commodity code...


Partial uncut sheet back...


Premium "Initial Ring" offer comparison... (Unknown year is the un-numbered cards)

[faustxxx]

     I highly doubt PSA cares about what the collector thinks regarding the label. They get something wrong with almost every submission.

[quas]

What's really annoying, and so easily correctable, is that for "landscape" cards, PSA is inconsistent with respect to orientation.  Sometimes the PSA label ends up on the right, and sometimes it ends up on the left.

[drono]

     I highly doubt PSA cares about what the collector thinks regarding the label. They get something wrong with almost every submission.

I agree, but what would tell the grader to label it 1977 in this case?  If I sent in a 5th Series Cover Ghoul, and told them it was 1st Series tan back, would they take my word for it or bother to do some research and label it correctly as a 5th Series?  If it's the former, then I have even less respect for them.

[MoldRush]

Then there is also the premium offers... I looked at the "Initial Ring" offer from both 1972 series, 1975, 1976 and 1978 series and compared to the ring offer from various wax comic offers from the same years. If the un-numbered cards had been released or re-released in 1977, Topps would have updated the offer to the then current number of comics needed and shipping cost. Also, by 1975, the address to send in for premiums had changed from "St. Paul, Minn." to "Westbury, N.Y." so if the cards were released in 1977 it would have caused issues for Topps.

Is it possible that the proof sheets (or whatever the master copies are called) for cards, wrappers and boxes were finalized in 1972 but production printing was delayed for whatever reason until several years later and Topps never bothered changing any of the codes?  Might explain why the card numbering is removed (would have been 72-01 through 72-66).  Also for what it’s worth, we definitely sent away for and got at least half a dozen of the premiums circa 1977.  Address changes may not mean that much because Topps had locations all over the tri-state area according to Wacky historians.  I just thought of something else relevant - my brother sent away for baseball felt mini-pennants, I think he had four, and one of them was the Seattle Mariners, whose inaugural year into MLB was 1977!  We had some 1975 and 1976 cards back then, but definitely stopped collecting before the later releases, so I’m pretty sure this is more ‘circumstantial evidence’ lol. 

Here’s a theory - Topps green lights the card format in 1972 but stops short of going into full production, for whatever reason. If 1975 was the first true release, then dusting off the 1972s and releasing in 1977 would have made for a nice balanced run - exactly one set per year from 1975 through 1978 or 1979, whenever the last set was.  I’m only really familiar with the puzzled sets and the magic tricks set.  And I do not include OPC in any of this analysis; I know there were different releases in Canada, at least one with completely different puzzles, but not much more than that.

[MoldRush]

I also distinctly recall encountering Monster Initials in 1977 or 1978, even though the Topps box and wrapper codes point to 1974.  That exposure was brief and limited, however; just a few packs.  If the gum was old and brittle I probably wouldn’t remember that.

Does anyone remember seeing Monster Initials during the OS Wacky years?  There should be someone who remembers if they were in fact 1974.

[RawGoo]

What's really annoying, and so easily correctable, is that for "landscape" cards, PSA is inconsistent with respect to orientation.  Sometimes the PSA label ends up on the right, and sometimes it ends up on the left.

I agree, that drives me nuts!!  But, even Topps is inconsistent when they produce cards that collectors are going to put in pages.......  they switch between series' and sometimes within a series!  I remember being absolutely THRILLED when I put the first Comic Ball set into pages and realized that Upper Deck totally thought that through!  And 9 holograms, just enough to fill a page!

[Paul_Maul]

I also distinctly recall encountering Monster Initials in 1977 or 1978, even though the Topps box and wrapper codes point to 1974.  That exposure was brief and limited, however; just a few packs.  If the gum was old and brittle I probably wouldn’t remember that.

Does anyone remember seeing Monster Initials during the OS Wacky years?  There should be someone who remembers if they were in fact 1974.

Monster Initials definitely came out in 1974. I bought a ton of them then.

[bigtomi]

I highly doubt PSA cares about what the collector thinks regarding the label.

Though I have never submitted even one card to PSA, my understanding is that they label the card based on what the submitter provides. I highly doubt they have time to look into each submission to validate anything. Someone please correct me, if I'm mistaken.

[MoldRush]

Monster Initials definitely came out in 1974. I bought a ton of them then.

Ok, then my experience was an anomaly, duly noted.  Thanks for that.

Who knows, maybe the Bazooka Joes were in fact issued 1972, then reprinted/reissued in 1977 to plug a hole in the one-set-per-year release pattern, with the card numbering airbrushed out.  The only problem with that theory is that I’ve never seen any version with a 72-## numbering scheme.  The wax comics always or almost always had a numbering scheme with the year in the first two digits (except for the ‘D’ series numbering which I’ve never really understood), so if there was a. ‘72 release I’d have to think they would have been numbered accordingly.

It’s funny, in hindsight the Bazooka Joe cards weren’t all that special.  Massive gum quantities aside, 15 cents a pack for just 2 cards was not a great deal, but we came so close to finishing that we were over-determined to keep buying until we got them, which of course we didn’t.  I ended up finding the rest at one of the big shows I went to in the late 90s.  Delayed gratification for 20 years.

[Paul_Maul]

Though I have never submitted even one card to PSA, my understanding is that they label the card based on what the submitter provides. I highly doubt they have time to look into each submission to validate anything. Someone please correct me, if I'm mistaken.

They have a drop down menu from which they select the card’s set name. So while it is possible that they select the wrong one, they wouldn’t put in a wrong year because the submitter wrote it.

[rdsjnk]

Monster Initials definitely came out in 1974. I bought a ton of them then.

1974 were tan backs and 1976 were white backs

[lcummins]

...Who knows, maybe the Bazooka Joes were in fact issued 1972, then reprinted/reissued in 1977 to plug a hole in the one-set-per-year release pattern, with the card numbering airbrushed out.  The only problem with that theory is that I’ve never seen any version with a 72-## numbering scheme.  The wax comics always or almost always had a numbering scheme with the year in the first two digits (except for the ‘D’ series numbering which I’ve never really understood), so if there was a. ‘72 release I’d have to think they would have been numbered accordingly...

There was a numbered 1972 set, different from the un-numbered one. It is the set that was used to issue the OPC and A&BC sets in 1972 or 1973. The numbering is more standard however and not like normal Bazooka Joe comics. There is still some discussion if the numbered set or un-numbered set came first in 1972, but since the numbered set was used to produce the OPC and A&BC sets, it is considered the first one issued. Also, the title "Bazooka Joe and His Gang" is centered in the top banner... all the other sets have the title 'right justified' in the top banner. Must of been a hit for Topps to create another set so quickly. As for 'yearly' sets... the shelf life for the "Bazooka Joe" card sets was about 12 to 18 months. The numbered 1972 set was issued for most of 1972. The un-numbered set was designed in very late 1972 but sold throughout 1973 and 1974. The 1975 set sold for most of 1975 and the first half of 1976. The 1976 set sold for the second half of 1976 and most of 1977. And the 1978 set (and scratch-off games also) sold for most of 1978 into 1979.

Card #1 Front...


Card #1 Back...


Wrapper (Fruit)...


Display Box Proof...

[Joe G.]

A little off topic but back the day I collected and sent away for many of the Bazooka Joe prizes.  In fact I still have my initial ring. It's very fun and the initial is indeed gold plated.

[MoldRush]

A little off topic but back the day I collected and sent away for many of the Bazooka Joe prizes.  In fact I still have my initial ring. It's very fun and the initial is indeed gold plated.

Here are the items I remember getting:

-mini camera - worked with the supplied film but the camera body wasn’t properly sealed and light leaks pretty much made for crappy pictures.  You could see enough to discern the photo’s content but light streaks made for sub-Polaroid quality.

-mini binoculars - worked fine, but rectangular, looked nothing like the picture

-mini tool kit - worked ok but mostly screw drivers

-sea shells - nice but very small specimens

-polished rocks and minerals - also ok but very small specimens

-walkie talkies connected by string - surprisingly work (by string vibration), but what are two kids gonna do when it stretches maybe 10 feet?

-mini felt baseball pennants - ok, but small, and I think you only got 2 per order


Those are the ones I remember anyway.  There were others I was always curious about.  Never went for any of the jewelry items, and there were several.

[Joe G.]

Tom, that’s awesome!  I certainly remember the mini camera, binoculars and tool set.  My favorite item were these weird tin Space Phones.  They were basically tin can phones but with a fun retro design.  A really unique item for Bazooka Joe to offer.

Here are the items I remember getting:

-mini camera - worked with the supplied film but the camera body wasn’t properly sealed and light leaks pretty much made for crappy pictures.  You could see enough to discern the photo’s content but light streaks made for sub-Polaroid quality.

-mini binoculars - worked fine, but rectangular, looked nothing like the picture

-mini tool kit - worked ok but mostly screw drivers

-sea shells - nice but very small specimens

-polished rocks and minerals - also ok but very small specimens

-walkie talkies connected by string - surprisingly work (by string vibration), but what are two kids gonna do when it stretches maybe 10 feet?

-mini felt baseball pennants - ok, but small, and I think you only got 2 per order


Those are the ones I remember anyway.  There were others I was always curious about.  Never went for any of the jewelry items, and there were several.

[MoldRush]

Tom, that’s awesome!  I certainly remember the mini camera, binoculars and tool set.  My favorite item were these weird tin Space Phones.  They were basically tin can phones but with a fun retro design.  A really unique item for Bazooka Joe to offer.

The funny part is I also remember looking for wax comics which had versions of the premium offer where no monetary payment was needed.  Just a higher point value in comics.  Not because we couldn’t come up with 65 cents or whatever the amounts were, but because we knew that trying to get our mom to write checks for this ‘crap’ would never fly, and if we taped coins inside the envelope we figured it would never reach its destination.

[MoldRush]

There was a numbered 1972 set, different from the un-numbered one. It is the set that was used to issue the OPC and A&BC sets in 1972 or 1973. The numbering is more standard however and not like normal Bazooka Joe comics. There is still some discussion if the numbered set or un-numbered set came first in 1972, but since the numbered set was used to produce the OPC and A&BC sets, it is considered the first one issued. Also, the title "Bazooka Joe and His Gang" is centered in the top banner... all the other sets have the title 'right justified' in the top banner. Must of been a hit for Topps to create another set so quickly. As for 'yearly' sets... the shelf life for the "Bazooka Joe" card sets was about 12 to 18 months. The numbered 1972 set was issued for most of 1972. The un-numbered set was designed in very late 1972 but sold throughout 1973 and 1974. The 1975 set sold for most of 1975 and the first half of 1976. The 1976 set sold for the second half of 1976 and most of 1977. And the 1978 set (and scratch-off games also) sold for most of 1978 into 1979.

I’d be curious to see the full puzzles associated with the set of the card you posted.  The front looks like a US card because I don’t see any French (OPC) on it, it’s printed in USA and has a domestic address for the premium mail-away.  But while your images further suggest the existence of a domestic set I can’t identify (let’s say 1972 for arguments’ sake), it is still not the same (based on the one completely unfamiliar card) as the set I’m referring to, which has the same puzzles as the 1975 set (Herman eating pies at a picnic table, Pesty juggling baseballs and the letters P - E - S - T - Y, kids on carousel and Bazooka Joe on bicycle holding banner) with different, unnumbered fronts.  I also notice a 10-cent price on your box proof.  We definitely paid 15 cents, actually 16 cents because the store owners taxed the candy/gum items.  We were perturbed by the upcharge and when we argued that price should be 15 cents she’d yell ‘penny tax!’  So the counter box must have had 15 cents printed on it.  Egad, the things one remembers.

[Paul_Maul]

I notice the premium says ‘send 40’ without mentioning ‘cents’ or ‘pence’ - could that mean it’s a UK card?

I think if it were a UK card it would have the A&BC copyright, like this Partridge Family UK card….

[MoldRush]

I think if it were a UK card it would have the A&BC copyright, like this Partridge Family UK card….

(Image removed from quote.)

Sorry, I made a few mistakes in my original post by not reviewing the images carefully enough; went back and edited it.

[MoldRush]

The site non-sport.com has some extensive info about Bazooka Joe.  They portray your card #1 as part of a 1970 set, and the unnumbered set as 1972.  Regardless, your analysis of the unnumbered set being issued late 1973 into 1974 gives me pause and a possible alternate timeline scenario - I feel like it’s possible we saw the magic trick cards after the unnumbered, but didnt go far with them because the puzzles were the attraction.  Similarly, puzzles returned in the 1975s but they were repeats, once again diluting our interest.  Had we seen the 1975s first, I have to believe we would have gone whole hog on those.  I would say we accumulated well over 100 of the unnumbered cards, but only 10-20 each of the 1975 and 1976 issues. The only other explanation I could imagine for such a disparity in quantity would be a timing issue - were the 1975s pulled right after we found them, and the unnumbered set presented the second chance?  Just thinking of possibilities looking backwards from what’s in my collection.  But I am finally starting to reconsider my previously (and stubbornly) held position of a 1977 timeframe.

[lcummins]

The site non-sport.com has some extensive info about Bazooka Joe.  They portray your card #1 as part of a 1970 set, and the unnumbered set as 1972.  Regardless, your analysis of the unnumbered set being issued late 1973 into 1974 gives me pause and a possible alternate timeline scenario - I feel like it’s possible we saw the magic trick cards after the unnumbered, but didnt go far with them because the puzzles were the attraction.  Similarly, puzzles returned in the 1975s but they were repeats, once again diluting our interest.  Had we seen the 1975s first, I have to believe we would have gone whole hog on those.  I would say we accumulated well over 100 of the unnumbered cards, but only 10-20 each of the 1975 and 1976 issues. The only other explanation I could imagine for such a disparity in quantity would be a timing issue - were the 1975s pulled right after we found them, and the unnumbered set presented the second chance?  Just thinking of possibilities looking backwards from what’s in my collection.  But I am finally starting to reconsider my previously (and stubbornly) held position of a 1977 timeframe.

I was about to point you at that site this morning! non-sport.com is an excellent site run by Todd Riley. I help maintain the site and added or updated most of the information about the "Bazooka Joe" card series. That first set is listed as 1972, not 1970, but many guides list it as such, but I provide dating info that squrely puts it in 1972. The un-numbered set and the 1975 set share the same puzzle backs, so your recollection seems to provide more evidence the un-numbered set was issued sometime between late 1972 and 1973. Dating some of these less collected Topps' issues can be difficult and "hobby knowledge" can be hard to correct when evidence proves otherwise. There is ample evidence that "Civil War" was issued in the summer of 1961 for the centennial celebration... updates to the ACC, stamped shipping cartons, etc., but the hobby still continues to date it to 1962, including the TPG companies. If we could find unopened packs of the "Bazooka Joe" cards from 1972 through around 1977, they might be the only way to conclusively prove dating.

[mikecho]

I was about to point you at that site this morning! non-sport.com is an excellent site run by Todd Riley. I help maintain the site and added or updated most of the information about the "Bazooka Joe" card series. That first set is listed as 1972, not 1970, but many guides list it as such, but I provide dating info that squrely puts it in 1972. The un-numbered set and the 1975 set share the same puzzle backs, so your recollection seems to provide more evidence the un-numbered set was issued sometime between late 1972 and 1973. Dating some of these less collected Topps' issues can be difficult and "hobby knowledge" can be hard to correct when evidence proves otherwise. There is ample evidence that "Civil War" was issued in the summer of 1961 for the centennial celebration... updates to the ACC, stamped shipping cartons, etc., but the hobby still continues to date it to 1962, including the TPG companies. If we could find unopened packs of the "Bazooka Joe" cards from 1972 through around 1977, they might be the only way to conclusively prove dating.

Funny that you should mention Civil War News. I would've thought that Topps would release Civil War News Heritage in honor of the 150th anniversary of the American Civil War (2011-2015), just as they released both Mars Attacks Heritage in 2012 for the 50th anniversary of that series (which, as all of us here know, was originally released in 1962) and Mars Attacks: The Revenge! in 2017 for its 55th anniversary, but they didn't.

Two more missed opportunities were in both 2008 and 2018 when Topps, if they had even thought of doing so, could've released Dinosaurs Attack! Heritage for either the 20th or 30th anniversary of that series (which, again as all of us here know, was originally released in 1988). Again, both times they didn't.

[MoldRush]

I was about to point you at that site this morning! non-sport.com is an excellent site run by Todd Riley. I help maintain the site and added or updated most of the information about the "Bazooka Joe" card series. That first set is listed as 1972, not 1970, but many guides list it as such, but I provide dating info that squrely puts it in 1972. The un-numbered set and the 1975 set share the same puzzle backs, so your recollection seems to provide more evidence the un-numbered set was issued sometime between late 1972 and 1973. Dating some of these less collected Topps' issues can be difficult and "hobby knowledge" can be hard to correct when evidence proves otherwise. There is ample evidence that "Civil War" was issued in the summer of 1961 for the centennial celebration... updates to the ACC, stamped shipping cartons, etc., but the hobby still continues to date it to 1962, including the TPG companies. If we could find unopened packs of the "Bazooka Joe" cards from 1972 through around 1977, they might be the only way to conclusively prove dating.

Yes, excellent resource.  I think I saw it a few times in the past but it looks like there’s a lot more content now.  Was very surprised to learn that the ‘75s had only 33 fronts with a pair of different backs for each - an early example of a GPK-like approach.  I bought the hardcover Topps put out several years ago but I thought it was somewhat lacking - extensive info on certain issues while completely skipping others.  There was one other major Bazooka Joe guy I met through eBay like 25 years ago and we made a small trade.  He was very interested in what I could offer but was a bit less than forthcoming in answering my questions, so we did some minor trade and I kind of gave up trying.  His eBay user id is that impish Superman character ‘mxyzptlk’ I think.  Believe he’s still active on eBay but not sure where he’s at with Bazooka nowadays.

I really like the dollar size wax comics too, and the ‘flavor colored’ comics in particular.  Anyway, as far as wrappers, my brother kept a few which I think were all ‘75.  I bought some on eBay here and there and they were a mix of ‘72s and ‘75s I think.  Basically the same graphics.  Somebody put a big stack on eBay a few weeks ago and I was hoping I could get them on the cheap, but the bidding went up quickly toward the close.  Those were probably a good mix from multiple sets.

I’m thinking I may be crazy enough to start analyzing the premium offers…..