Fake Pack Alert

[Paul_Maul]

This 5th series pack currently on ebay is definitely fake. As usual, this is no reflection on the seller. In fact, this pack looks like it comes from the huge motherlode of fakes disseminated on ebay by Tedjeffrey, who was also an unwitting pawn. I applaud Ted for stopping
selling unopened packs when he realized what was going on.

The other packs from this seller appear to be fine.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wacky-Packages-Series-5-Unopened-Wax-Pack-/180595032955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0c4d837b



 

[bandaches]

This 5th series pack currently on ebay is definitely fake. As usual, this is no reflection on the seller. In fact, this pack looks like it comes from the huge motherlode of fakes disseminated on ebay by Tedjeffrey, who was also an unwitting pawn. I applaud Ted for stopping
selling unopened packs when he realized what was going on.

The other packs from this seller appear to be fine.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wacky-Packages-Series-5-Unopened-Wax-Pack-/180595032955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0c4d837b



 

How many different sources were providing Tedjeffery the fake packs that he was consigning?  The secrecy behind the trail of these packs doesn't do the hobby any favors and allows the guilty parties to rock on!

[Paul_Maul]

How many different sources were providing Tedjeffery the fake packs that he was consigning?  The secrecy behind the trail of these packs doesn't do the hobby any favors and allows the guilty parties to rock on!

One source. No further info provided.

[Kook]

Dave,
How can you tell this one's fake?

[Liptorn]

It looks like it is wrapped and sealed "too" tight to me.

[Paul_Maul]

The lower flap should be overlaying the upper one on an 85-fold pack. This is the opposite. That alone is conclusive. However, it looks exactly like all of the other packs I examined that originated from Tedjeffrey. These attributes include: folds on short edges appear too uniform, wrapper appears to have significant wear in areas where a legit pack could not.

I guarantee if you examined it in person, you would find glue all over the folds, just like all of the fakes I opened from TJ.

[Paul_Maul]

One source. No further info provided.

Actually that's not completely true. I just re-read my e-mail exchanges with him, and he stated that, while he would not
reveal the identity of the consignor, he was a "respected member of the wacky forum." The bottom line is, there is no way
to ever assign guilt in these cases. Frankly, it's believable that someone buying stuff in bulk from disparate sources
could end up with tons of fakes and pass them along unwittingly. Even if that stretches credibility, the resulting "plausible deniability"
is really all it takes to create reasonable doubt. That's why I decided to just let it go once he stopped selling them.

[bandaches]

Actually that's not completely true. I just re-read my e-mail exchanges with him, and he stated that, while he would not
reveal the identity of the consignor, he was a "respected member of the wacky forum." The bottom line is, there is no way
to ever assign guilt in these cases. Frankly, it's believable that someone buying stuff in bulk from disparate sources
could end up with tons of fakes and pass them along unwittingly. Even if that stretches credibility, the resulting "plausible deniability"
is really all it takes to create reasonable doubt. That's why I decided to just let it go once he stopped selling them.

Who is this new seller, is he a consignor?  Did this new seller have fake packs before?  If not, it seems to suggest this "respected member" is taking steps to find a new way to sell these packs.  That no longer seems all that respectible as it would be unreasonable for this person to feign ignorance anymore.

[Paul_Maul]

Who is this new seller, is he a consignor?  Did this new seller have fake packs before?  If not, it seems to suggest this "respected member" is taking steps to find a new way to sell these packs.  That no longer seems all that respectible as it would be unreasonable for this person to feign ignorance anymore.

I think you have it wrong. Soundtoaster seems to just be selling off his personal collection of packs lately. He probably just bought this pack from tedjeffrey and is now re-selling it. Remember, tedjeffrey sold (by his accounting) over 100 unopened packs. The vast majority are probably fake and are out there in people's collections.

[bandaches]

I think you have it wrong. Soundtoaster seems to just be selling off his personal collection of packs lately. He probably just bought this pack from tedjeffrey and is now re-selling it. Remember, tedjeffrey sold (by his accounting) over 100 unopened packs. The vast majority are probably fake and are out there in people's collections.

Ok, I stand corrected.  I couldn't tell the difference between someone selling their pack collection versus selling consignment items so I will assume you spoke to this seller.

[Liptorn]

Actually that's not completely true. I just re-read my e-mail exchanges with him, and he stated that, while he would not
reveal the identity of the consignor, he was a "respected member of the wacky forum." The bottom line is, there is no way
to ever assign guilt in these cases. Frankly, it's believable that someone buying stuff in bulk from disparate sources
could end up with tons of fakes and pass them along unwittingly. Even if that stretches credibility, the resulting "plausible deniability"
is really all it takes to create reasonable doubt. That's why I decided to just let it go once he stopped selling them.

Don't you find it a little odd that a "respected member of the wacky forum" needs to consign packs to tedjeffrey to sell?  If he is so respected, why wouldn't he just sell them through the forum with no extra costs or put them on ebay himself?

Seems like the consignor had a good feeling the packs were bad or could be bad and thought he could filter them through the top rated Wacky seller on ebay without anyone knowing.

[Paul_Maul]

Don't you find it a little odd that a "respected member of the wacky forum" needs to consign packs to tedjeffrey to sell?  If he is so respected, why wouldn't he just sell them through the forum with no extra costs or put them on ebay himself?

Seems like the consignor had a good feeling the packs were bad or could be bad and thought he could filter them through the top rated Wacky seller on ebay without anyone knowing.

That's certainly one possible scenario. I lost too much sleep about this already, all I can do is clean up my collection and try to help
others who care do the same.

[bandaches]

Don't you find it a little odd that a "respected member of the wacky forum" needs to consign packs to tedjeffrey to sell?  If he is so respected, why wouldn't he just sell them through the forum with no extra costs or put them on ebay himself?

Seems like the consignor had a good feeling the packs were bad or could be bad and thought he could filter them through the top rated Wacky seller on ebay without anyone knowing.

Agreed, not sure how Tedjeffrey qualified the person as respected.  Seems to me Tedjeffrey is purely a seller and doesn't seem to hang out on the forums so how would be know who is respected and who not other than someone feeding him a pile of BS.

[sco(o)t]

Agreed, not sure how Tedjeffrey qualified the person as respected.  Seems to me Tedjeffrey is purely a seller and doesn't seem to hang out on the forums so how would be know who is respected and who not other than someone feeding him a pile of BS.

Hmmmm... Pack laundering. How much are these packs selling for that it was worth all the effort that must have been made?

[Liptorn]

Hmmmm... Pack laundering. How much are these packs selling for that it was worth all the effort that must have been made?

If tedjeffrey said he handled about 100 packs, they probably were selling at a low average of at $15-20 each, so maybe a couple grand is worth the effort?

[CanadianClod]

Bump...
I also bid on these but never won any,I was gonna bust them open anyway.
He told me that he never bought any of them from Ted and pulled the pack in question after i asked him about it.
He was consulting with Greg about them to ID them I think.
Anyone here win any of them?

[Bigmuc13]

The lower flap should be overlaying the upper one on an 85-fold pack. This is the opposite. That alone is conclusive. However, it looks exactly like all of the other packs I examined that originated from Tedjeffrey. These attributes include: folds on short edges appear too uniform, wrapper appears to have significant wear in areas where a legit pack could not.

I guarantee if you examined it in person, you would find glue all over the folds, just like all of the fakes I opened from TJ.

Dave,

I am late to the party on this one.  I looked at the picture, and I am trying to understand which flaps you are talking about.  you say the lower flap should overlay upper one, is that top to bottom, or from side to side looking at the pack standing upright.  The upper and lower don't touch at all looking at it that way.  If you mean side to side, where the ad is and the Paste Anyplace Kid are, then I understand.  Also, if the latter is the case, how can you be sure that the packs were always folded this way.  Topps QC is legendary in its ineptness.  If a roll was fed in upside down, then wouldn't the obverse be true of the fold?  I could easily see this happening at the factory.  I bring this up for two reasons.  1, I know that the pack orientation is very random.  I have opened quite a few series 16 packs over the years and the order and direction of the stickers and puzzle cards varied in just about every way.  Event he gum was sometimes at the back of the pack, not the front where it almost always was.  2, I have a GCI sealed series 5 yellow pack (85) that I am now doubting because the flap on the back is folded in a similar manner, where the other side than what you would expect is on top.  If you are interested, I can mail it to you and have you check it out.  Although, I am not sure how hard it is to inspect a pack that is slabbed.  For the record, I bought it maybe 3 years ago, and I really don't remember where I got it.  I am pretty sure it was an ebay win.  Does anyone know how far back ebay lets you check your wins? 

[Paul_Maul]

Bill,

Everything you quoted pertains only to 85-fold packs. Yes, I mean that when viewed in landscape mode, the bottom flap (containing text) should overlay the top flap (containing the pate anyplace kid or the ad graphics). Upon examination in person, I can tell whether the pack is real or not without regard to this property. EVERY SINGLE real 85-fold pack I have ever examined (including all of Ernie's stock, several personal collections, full boxes, etc.) has this property. EVERY SINGLE 85-fold pack I've examined with the flaps reversed has been verifiable as fake without just relying on this property. To me that is conclusive.

When it comes to 21-fold packs, the upper flap almost always overlays the lower flap. The only exception I have ever seen are the 5th series yellow 21-fold packs you are referring to. I have owned or examined two of these with the lower flap on top which were definitely real, as yours probably is. They are obviously all from the same box (I got mine years ago from Dan McKee) and that is an exception to the almost universal rule for 21-fold packs.

I should ad that wacky ad packs and poster packs (whose fronts are horizontally oriented) seem a little odd when you first examine them because the ad is upside down compared to the front of the pack. This is the way they should be, with the upper flap overlaying the lower (like a 21-fold).

Let me know if anything is unclear. The seller of the pack in question claims it did not originate with Tedjeffrey, and that may be true, but it is still fake.

[DrSushi]

Bill,

Everything you quoted pertains only to 85-fold packs. Yes, I mean that when viewed in landscape mode, the bottom flap (containing text) should overlay the top flap (containing the pate anyplace kid or the ad graphics). Upon examination in person, I can tell whether the pack is real or not without regard to this property. EVERY SINGLE real 85-fold pack I have ever examined (including all of Ernie's stock, several personal collections, full boxes, etc.) has this property. EVERY SINGLE 85-fold pack I've examined with the flaps reversed has been verifiable as fake without just relying on this property. To me that is conclusive.

When it comes to 21-fold packs, the upper flap almost always overlays the lower flap. The only exception I have ever seen are the 5th series yellow 21-fold packs you are referring to. I have owned or examined two of these with the lower flap on top which were definitely real, as yours probably is. They are obviously all from the same box (I got mine years ago from Dan McKee) and that is an exception to the almost universal rule for 21-fold packs.

I should ad that wacky ad packs and poster packs (whose fronts are horizontally oriented) seem a little odd when you first examine them because the ad is upside down compared to the front of the pack. This is the way they should be, with the upper flap overlaying the lower (like a 21-fold).

Let me know if anything is unclear. The seller of the pack in question claims it did not originate with Tedjeffrey, and that may be true, but it is still fake.

Thanks for posting (and thanks for asking the clarifying question, Bill).

I really wish I could remember this kind of thing better, but that seems unlikely as my addled brain struggles to hold onto what little it has. Is there a place to easily locate your list of things that indicate a pack is faked? If there is, I've forgotten.

[Bigmuc13]

Thanks for the extra indo Dave.  As always, great stuff.  I am not a big pack collector anymore.  I have sold off a lot of what I had.  I do still have one very cool pack in my collection, a series 2 red pack with a ludlow sticker facing out toward the back.  When you press the back tight to the pack, you can clearly see the Camel.  I bought it from Greg a while back.  It is definitely a series 2 and not a series one, however, because I am positive it is a 'gray' camel, not a full out black one.  And I remember we did a survey many years ago and all the big big ludlow guys chimed in, and not one person had a gray series 1 lud, all were the dark black.  I guess I can throw it out there agian, does anyone who collect Luds have a series 1 black Ludlow sticker that is the lighter, or gray, variety?  I would be surprised if anyone had one.

[Paul_Maul]

Thanks for the extra indo Dave.  As always, great stuff.  I am not a big pack collector anymore.  I have sold off a lot of what I had.  I do still have one very cool pack in my collection, a series 2 red pack with a ludlow sticker facing out toward the back.  When you press the back tight to the pack, you can clearly see the Camel.  I bought it from Greg a while back.  It is definitely a series 2 and not a series one, however, because I am positive it is a 'gray' camel, not a full out black one.  And I remember we did a survey many years ago and all the big big ludlow guys chimed in, and not one person had a gray series 1 lud, all were the dark black.  I guess I can throw it out there agian, does anyone who collect Luds have a series 1 black Ludlow sticker that is the lighter, or gray, variety?  I would be surprised if anyone had one.

I'm not up on ludlows, but I do know that the ludlow packs Greg had all came from the same partial box, and so are all 2nd series. I don't believe a 1st series pack with an apparent ludlow has ever surfaced. Many 1st and 2nd series packs have the sticker side facing outward so in many cases it would be impossible to tell anyway.

[Paul_Maul]

Thanks for posting (and thanks for asking the clarifying question, Bill).

I really wish I could remember this kind of thing better, but that seems unlikely as my addled brain struggles to hold onto what little it has. Is there a place to easily locate your list of things that indicate a pack is faked? If there is, I've forgotten.

Based on a scan, there isn't much else to look for. This thread is rather lengthy, but it has a few tidbits. The main criterion for spotting fakes is to examine the wax roller marks across the seal, which needs to be done in person.

 http://www.wackypackages.org/wackyforum/messages.php?t=3457&a=1&mn=1&stealth=

[DrSushi]

Based on a scan, there isn't much else to look for. This thread is rather lengthy, but it has a few tidbits. The main criterion for spotting fakes is to examine the wax roller marks across the seal, which needs to be done in person.

 http://www.wackypackages.org/wackyforum/messages.php?t=3457&a=1&mn=1&stealth=

Thanks! Keep up the good work.

[BustedFinger]

Based on a scan, there isn't much else to look for. This thread is rather lengthy, but it has a few tidbits. The main criterion for spotting fakes is to examine the wax roller marks across the seal, which needs to be done in person.

 http://www.wackypackages.org/wackyforum/messages.php?t=3457&a=1&mn=1&stealth=

I went back and read through that thread again and I did pick up a few more insights that I missed out on back then.  I also noticed that the thread had my posts in it about the set of 6th series packs that I picked up back then.  Looking at those pictures, I noticed that the GAI-8 pack has the 21-fold flaps laying the wrong way:





I bought three packs in that lot and the GAI-8 was the only one that was like that.

[BustedFinger]

Here are the pics of the other packs:









I ended up keeping the 7.0 pack sealed.  I opened the 7.5 (got a Truant and a Peter Pain) and sold the 8.0 to a forum member.  At the time, we came to the conclusion that those packs were legit but perhaps that 8.0 wasn't legit after all?  I don't remember who bought it from me.

EDIT:  Actually, now the more I look at these two pictures, I am not so sure which way the flaps are sealed.  I will have to pull out the pack I kept tonight and take a look at it.

[Fool-Aid]

Hey Loren, I think i bought one of those packs from you and believe its still slabbed as I did not bust it open yet. I will see if i can locate it later this week. All this pack info is good to know.

[Paul_Maul]

Here are the pics of the other packs:









I ended up keeping the 7.0 pack sealed.  I opened the 7.5 (got a Truant and a Peter Pain) and sold the 8.0 to a forum member.  At the time, we came to the conclusion that those packs were legit but perhaps that 8.0 wasn't legit after all?  I don't remember who bought it from me.

EDIT:  Actually, now the more I look at these two pictures, I am not so sure which way the flaps are sealed.  I will have to pull out the pack I kept tonight and take a look at it.

Loren,

For 21-fold packs (NOT for 85-folds), the top flap should overlay the bottom almost all the time. To me, it looks like all three of these have it that way.

[BustedFinger]

OK I think I got this now:  21-Fold packs should have the "Paste Kid / Ad Graphics" flap overlaying the "fine print" flap.  85-Fold packs should have the "fine print" overlaying the "Kid / Ad", correct?

I checked all my packs and they do all conform to these rules.  I noticed on my 85-fold 10th pack, that the side flaps are loose but the ends are tightly sealed.  I may need to upgrade that one.  You have any 10th packs left?

[Paul_Maul]

OK I think I got this now:  21-Fold packs should have the "Paste Kid / Ad Graphics" flap overlaying the "fine print" flap.  85-Fold packs should have the "fine print" overlaying the "Kid / Ad", correct?

I checked all my packs and they do all conform to these rules.  I noticed on my 85-fold 10th pack, that the side flaps are loose but the ends are tightly sealed.  I may need to upgrade that one.  You have any 10th packs left?

That is exactly right! PM sent on the 10th.

[Paul_Maul]

Here is an excerpt from Steve Hart's blog from his Baseball Card Exchange site. Steve is the guy who does all of the unopened pack authentication for PSA. He is the most respected seller of unopened material in the Sports Card world.

----------
First of all, I was out in California last week working for PSA. As most of you know, I do all the authenticating for PSA on unopened material. They had a TON of stuff out there for me to do and needed it done by the end of the 3rd quarter. Just let me say be very, very careful out there buying pre-1975 unopened material. I looked at quite a bit of it at PSA's headquarters and I would guess that 80-90% of it was re-sealed. It seems that eBay is the place most of this re-sealed stuff ends up at. Do your homework on this stuff before you make the leap on eBay. I also saw a large number of 1986/87 Fleer basketball packs that were resealed (or completely homemade!). People often ask me why my 86/87 Fleer basketball packs are $350.00 on my website when you can pick them up on eBay for $100-$200 per pack. Well, that is exactly the reason. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!
-----------

I quote this in case anyone thinks I'm overly alarmist about ebay pack faking. While it's way more prevalent with sports cards, it's pretty prevalent with wackys also. I've stopped posting about it, but packs are still being listed on ebay regularly by sellers who are guilty of faking packs in the past. Feel free to consult me before buying any wax packs on ebay.

[Duznt]

I quote this in case anyone thinks I'm overly alarmist about ebay pack faking. While it's way more prevalent with sports cards, it's pretty prevalent with wackys also. I've stopped posting about it, but packs are still being listed on ebay regularly by sellers who are guilty of faking packs in the past. Feel free to consult me before buying any wax packs on ebay.

Thanks for keeping up with this. If I ever get into pack collecting, I know who to come to for expert verification 

[Dr Popper]

Thanks for keeping up with this. If I ever get into pack collecting, I know who to come to for expert verification 

That's one of the reasons I don't get into to pack collecting!  It's hard enough finding rare items but when there's a variable thrown in that many of them in the market are fake it's enough to discourage me.

[bandaches]

That's one of the reasons I don't get into to pack collecting!  It's hard enough finding rare items but when there's a variable thrown in that many of them in the market are fake it's enough to discourage me.

This is a reason I am somewhat reluctant to sell any of my hoard of wrappers, especially my series 16 wrappers.  Hardly a financial windfall for me so why put the hobby at risk that some clown will start creating more series 16 packs. 

[Paul_Maul]

This is a reason I am somewhat reluctant to sell any of my hoard of wrappers, especially my series 16 wrappers.  Hardly a financial windfall for me so why put the hobby at risk that some clown will start creating more series 16 packs. 

That is a definite concern, especially with 16ths where so many packs have been opened recently. A great detective on the PSA forum actually researched it and came up with smoking guns connecting ebay buyers of baseball wrappers with sellers of re-sealed packs.

It's tough for wacky enthusiasts because so few packs exist in a reliably encapsulated form compared to sports cards. But don't give up for anyone that's interested, it is possible to become educated enough to function in this area of the hobby.

[bandaches]

That is a definite concern, especially with 16ths where so many packs have been opened recently. A great detective on the PSA forum actually researched it and came up with smoking guns connecting ebay buyers of baseball wrappers with sellers of re-sealed packs.

It's tough for wacky enthusiasts because so few packs exist in a reliably encapsulated form compared to sports cards. But don't give up for anyone that's interested, it is possible to become educated enough to function in this area of the hobby.

A large majority of my packs came from one source, a guy with a store loaded with 1970s stuff including sports and non sports so I am lucky as I know mine are legit.  It was through him that I got my shipping case of the 19 cent version of wacky patches.  The only one that might be of concern is my series 1 pack which came from some guy in the northwest, it seems there have been questions around Dan's series 1 pack and my pack came from the same source.  Do you recall if you ever looked at my series 1 pack?