Author Topic: Sales figures  (Read 2856 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Sales figures
« on: February 23, 2023, 04:16:35 PM »
During this fallow period for Wackys, I’ve been pondering….I have read many times that Topps was notoriously tight-lipped about giving out sales or even production figures for their card lines. Im guessing that might have had something to do with chaser card frequencies. Does anyone have a guess or even wild speculation about how many of a series were sold? I found on some baseball card forum figures that Topps produced from 500,000 to 750,000 baseball cards per season in the mid 70s. Since I have frequently read that for a brief period, Wackys outsold baseball cards, i surmise Wacky sales were in the same ballpark…If that’s true, there could be thousands of Wackys out there in the wild….Although i get that many kids stuck them or otherwise destroyed them…
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 04:46:03 PM by JailOJohn »

Offline Alexeirex

  • Posts: 1208
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2023, 06:25:45 PM »
During this fallow period for Wackys, I’ve been pondering….I have read many times that Topps was notoriously tight-lipped about giving out sales or even production figures for their card lines. Im guessing that might have had something to do with chaser card frequencies. Does anyone have a guess or even wild speculation about how many of a series were sold? I found on some baseball card forum figures that Topps produced from 500,000 to 750,000 baseball cards per season in the mid 70s. Since I have frequently read that for a brief period, Wackys outsold baseball cards, i surmise Wacky sales were in the same ballpark…If that’s true, there could be thousands of Wackys out there in the wild….Although i get that many kids stuck them or otherwise destroyed them…

In the 40s, some of the best selling comic lines were the Fawcett Captain Marvel and family series - supposedly they sold up to a million copies of some of their issues outselling even the Superman comics. Granted that the 40s and 50s were a long time ago, there doesn't seem to be thousands of these issues in the wild. Kids are rough with their things and paper items are emphemeral in nature, not to mention that there were comic book burnings in the 1950s. Little things like stickers can be easily saved though....I'm hoping there are unopened boxes and cases somewhere out there...

Offline freetoes

  • Posts: 239
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2023, 07:25:08 PM »
During this fallow period for Wackys, I’ve been pondering….I have read many times that Topps was notoriously tight-lipped about giving out sales or even production figures for their card lines. Im guessing that might have had something to do with chaser card frequencies. Does anyone have a guess or even wild speculation about how many of a series were sold? I found on some baseball card forum figures that Topps produced from 500,000 to 750,000 baseball cards per season in the mid 70s. Since I have frequently read that for a brief period, Wackys outsold baseball cards, i surmise Wacky sales were in the same ballpark…If that’s true, there could be thousands of Wackys out there in the wild….Although i get that many kids stuck them or otherwise destroyed them…

I remember something about a purchase order for Series 14 being unearthed, which might offer clues as to the production run. The numbers presumably would have been much higher for the middle series.

Offline drono

  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2023, 02:56:03 AM »
Kids are rough with their things and paper items are ephemeral in nature, not to mention that there were comic book burnings in the 1950s. Little things like stickers can be easily saved though.

Don't forget about the moms who threw away entire collections after their children moved out.

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2023, 12:36:44 PM »
I remember something about a purchase order for Series 14 being unearthed, which might offer clues as to the production run. The numbers presumably would have been much higher for the middle series.

The purchase order was for 15,000,000 (yes, million!) checklist cards for series 14. Even accounting for waste, damage and unused cards, Topps probably packaged at least 10 to 12 million packs! If there were two stickers per pack, that would be 20 to 24 million stickers... just for the 14th series!


Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2023, 04:58:36 PM »
Thanks! That invoice is an awesome artifact! Do we know who unearthed it?

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2023, 05:50:38 PM »
Thanks! That invoice is an awesome artifact! Do we know who unearthed it?

I believe it came from the Zabel Bros. factory in the same ‘find’ as all the uncut proof sheets from their files, and the pallet of uncut 1979 Wacky sheets that were discussed in another thread. Other paperwork was found as well, but I don’t know what happened to most of it.

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2023, 08:06:33 AM »
To clarify my statement above, the number of packs is just a wild guess. I highly doubt Topps actually damaged or wasted 3 to 5 million checklist cards, but that also doesn't mean they were ever packaged either. Topps would cut the sheets into individual cards and store them in 'cut card cases' which held about 9000 cards, before they were sent to packaging. Many 'cut card cases' from various Topps sets were sold at a discount to card dealers back in the day, and some occasionally turn up on eBay to this day. So even if the checklist cards didn't all make it into packs, most probably made it out of Duryea in some form or another.

Hypothetically, if all 15 million cards were packed with 2 stickers each, that would be 30 million stickers, or about 1,000,000 per title. And, we don't know if there were other printings or just this one. The paperwork below mentions previous job numbers on all three work orders, so all of them are at least a second printing.

For comparison, here are paperwork examples of three (actually four) other sets. Comic Book Heroes Stickers (1975), Good Times (1975), Happy Days (1976) and Marvel Superhero Stickers (1976). Here are the numbers...


Comic Book Heroes Stickers (3rd revision sheet)
23,500 sheets = 6,204,000 stickers = 141,000 complete sets

Good Times stickers
5025 sheets = 1,326,600 stickers = 60,300 complete sets


Happy Day stickers
8,000 sheets = 2,112,000 stickers = 192,000 complete sets


Marvel Superhero Stickers checklists
5,000 sheets = 1,320,000 cards = about 146,667 complete sets with left over cards

Wacky Packages 14th checklists
57,000 sheets = 15,048,000 cards = about 1,368,000 complete sets with left over cards

Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2023, 10:31:56 AM »
I do know that those 1976 Marvel Superheroes stickers fetch big bucks today. They recently reprinted them all in a paperback book for those of us who cannot afford hundreds of dollars.

Offline mikecho

  • Posts: 2675
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2023, 10:34:00 AM »
I do know that those 1976 Marvel Superheroes stickers fetch big bucks today. They recently reprinted them all in a paperback book for those of us who cannot afford hundreds of dollars.
When did this happen? I'd love to get that book!

Offline Soremel

  • Posts: 545
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2023, 10:45:09 AM »
The purchase order was for 15,000,000 (yes, million!) checklist cards for series 14. Even accounting for waste, damage and unused cards, Topps probably packaged at least 10 to 12 million packs! If there were two stickers per pack, that would be 20 to 24 million stickers... just for the 14th series!

(Image removed from quote.)

I'm not 100% positive, but I think that this could possibly be the job folder/packet for this invoice ...


Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2023, 11:00:14 AM »
I'm not 100% positive, but I think that this could possibly be the job folder/packet for this invoice ...

That is the Zabel Bros. internal work order that matches the Topps Purchase order. The final press run appears to be 56,500 sheets completed on June 27, 1975. It doesn't mention a previous or old job number, so this most likely was the first press run, so the 14th series couldn't have hit shelves much before July 1975 given they still had to cut the cards, pack and ship to distributors. Thanks for the image!

Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2023, 12:51:13 PM »
Mike, if you go to Amazon and search  marvel sticker book, it has been out for about 3 years. Book contains all of those stickers for about $16…..

Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2023, 01:01:29 PM »
Do those figures indicate they paid $747 to print 15 million Wackies? I know they had other costs, but at 5 cents per pack, that brought in $375,000. Although i guess they didnt get the whole nickel, transportation and retailers prolly got some of the money…

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 3333
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2023, 01:56:32 PM »
Do those figures indicate they paid $747 to print 15 million Wackies? I know they had other costs, but at 5 cents per pack, that brought in $375,000. Although i guess they didnt get the whole nickel, transportation and retailers prolly got some of the money…

I don’t think that’s what it means.

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2023, 02:02:08 PM »
Do those figures indicate they paid $747 to print 15 million Wackies? I know they had other costs, but at 5 cents per pack, that brought in $375,000. Although i guess they didnt get the whole nickel, transportation and retailers prolly got some of the money…

I would assume so… there are the same type of calculations on some of the other work orders. But remember, that would probably be just for the printing of the checklist cards. Topps still had to pay for the card stock sheets, sticker sheets and their printing, wrapper paper and printing, gum ingredients and manufacturing, display boxes & shipping cases and printing, artists, artwork photography, film creation, proofs, advertising and materials, transportation for all that material, salaries and company overhead, etc., etc., etc.

If the wacky box had 24 packs, retailing for $1.20, the retailer probably paid just $.69 to $.79 for a box from the distributor, who obviously paid less than that, so Topps probably only saw maybe $.02 per pack, less their costs above.

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 3333
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2023, 02:41:25 PM »
The 747.75 is just the cost of the inks. Note the arithmetic:

Red 40 lbs x  2.90 = 116
Yellow 75 lbs x 2.16 = 162
Blue 50 lbs x 2.92 = 146
Black 20 lbs x 1.44 = 28.80
Varnish 110 lbs x .82 = 90.20
Alt Yellow 50 lbs x 2.10 = 105
Alt Black 75 lbs x 1.33 = 99.75

Offline mikecho

  • Posts: 2675
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2023, 02:44:04 PM »
Mike, if you go to Amazon and search  marvel sticker book, it has been out for about 3 years. Book contains all of those stickers for about $16…..
I did what you said; I even looked under Topps Marvel Super Heroes Stickers book. All I got was a whole bunch of modern sticker books and nothing from Topps.

Btw, does it contain the stickers from both of Topps' series, Comic Book Heroes (1975) with the Fantastic Four #100 cover puzzle and Marvel Super Heroes Stickers (1976) with the Conan the Barbarian #1 cover puzzle? It sounds like something Abrams would publish.

UPDATE: I looked in Abrams' web site and I think I found the book you're talking about. Is it Marvel Value Stamps: A Visual History? That was all I could find.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 02:52:46 PM by mikecho »


Offline mikecho

  • Posts: 2675
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2023, 02:55:51 PM »
https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/marvel-classic-sticker-book_9781419743436/
I figured it'd be Abrams' work, but I was looking in Comics. I didn't even think of looking in Children's.

And it has both series! Wow! I wonder if the two completed puzzles are included as well? This I've got to get, but I personally think it would've been so much better as a small hardcover book, like all of Abrams' other books on Topps' trading card series. Granted, this one may or may not have had any lost bonus cards included, but still...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 03:04:40 PM by mikecho »

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2023, 03:44:05 PM »
The 747.75 is just the cost of the inks. Note the arithmetic:

Red 40 lbs x  2.90 = 116
Yellow 75 lbs x 2.16 = 162
Blue 50 lbs x 2.92 = 146
Black 20 lbs x 1.44 = 28.80
Varnish 110 lbs x .82 = 90.20
Alt Yellow 50 lbs x 2.10 = 105
Alt Black 75 lbs x 1.33 = 99.75

You are absolutely correct! There was probably the actual printing cost on top of the ink cost. If only copies of Zabel’s invoices to Topps were in those files, we could know for sure. By the way, in today’s dollars, that ink would cost over $4200.

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 3333
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2023, 04:14:05 PM »
I personally think it would've been so much better as a small hardcover book, like all of Abrams' other books on Topps' trading card series. Granted, this one may or may not have had any lost bonus cards included, but still...

But this book is not like those other books, which exclusively printed those card series. This Marvel sticker book, in addition to the stickers from the Topps releases, also contains a bunch of other stickers, including logos, the rectangular boxes from the upper left corner of Marvel’s silver age comics, and superhero head shots (all of these are shown in this Amazon listing). It’s a sticker book covering a bunch of Marvel content, not just the card series.

https://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Classic-Sticker-Book-Entertainment/dp/1419743430

Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2023, 04:26:29 PM »
That’s the one. Its a pretty cool sticker book!

Offline JailOJohn

  • Posts: 736
  • Sticking Wackys on Furniture since 1973...
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2023, 04:53:58 PM »
Can you imagine how much a few cases of unopened 14th series would be worth today? Or would one or two wealthy collectors gobble it all up?

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 3333
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2023, 03:39:35 AM »
Can you imagine how much a few cases of unopened 14th series would be worth today? Or would one or two wealthy collectors gobble it all up?

This hobby is small enough that a few cases of 14ths turning up would saturate the market. Boxes would soon be sitting on eBay unsold for $600, like 1974 poster boxes currently are.

Offline drono

  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2023, 06:24:01 AM »
Wacky Packages 14th checklists
57,000 sheets = 15,048,000 cards = about 1,368,000 complete sets with left over cards

With 57,000 sheets they had to use three different stocks (white, tan, tri-fold).  If other series had that many, I'm surprised there weren't more back variations.

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2023, 07:17:19 AM »
With 57,000 sheets they had to use three different stocks (white, tan, tri-fold).  If other series had that many, I'm surprised there weren't more back variations.

Those 57,000 sheets were the checklist cards, not the stickers.

Offline koduck

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2579
  • Make it snappy!
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2023, 07:37:48 AM »
Those 57,000 sheets were the checklist cards, not the stickers.

Not sure if this is very helpful, but I recall a discussion with Jay Lynch back in the late 80's and he seemed to think there were 250k boxes made for one of the series, but I don't remember which series it was.

Offline lcummins

  • Posts: 50
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2023, 08:28:18 AM »
Not sure if this is very helpful, but I recall a discussion with Jay Lynch back in the late 80's and he seemed to think there were 250k boxes made for one of the series, but I don't remember which series it was.

Neil, if the 56,500 sheets of checklist cards for the 14th series were all hypothetically packed, that would be 310,750 boxes of 48 packs, or 12, 947 cases of 24 boxes. So that 250K sounds about right.

Offline drono

  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2023, 03:02:54 AM »
Those 57,000 sheets were the checklist cards, not the stickers.

True, but if there were two stickers to every checklist card, then that's 114,000 sheets of stickers. It's amazing that this series didn't show up everywhere.  I don't remember seeing anything after series 12 in Southeastern Virginia - and those only showed up at the concession stand where I played baseball.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2023, 03:06:58 AM by drono »

Offline JasonLiebig

  • Posts: 1791
    • CollectingCandy.com
Re: Sales figures
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2023, 06:51:09 AM »
But this book is not like those other books, which exclusively printed those card series. This Marvel sticker book, in addition to the stickers from the Topps releases, also contains a bunch of other stickers, including logos, the rectangular boxes from the upper left corner of Marvel’s silver age comics, and superhero head shots (all of these are shown in this Amazon listing). It’s a sticker book covering a bunch of Marvel content, not just the card series.

https://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Classic-Sticker-Book-Entertainment/dp/1419743430

And you can STICK the things! It's FUN!  :-)
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host (currently on History Channel) who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all

 

anything