Author Topic: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding  (Read 2629 times)

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Offline jleonard1967

  • Posts: 1101
1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« on: March 29, 2022, 03:07:41 PM »
Its a shame, This auction was up for a week and I was out bid at the last second.  I bid 21.00 and it went for I think 21.50  COMC was selling it.   Low and behold the exact card is up on COMC for a buy it now of 56.00.  This one reeks of shill bidding.  At least wait a week (not the next day) to repost it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234472704057?hash=item3697a98839:g:VaQAAOSwb4JiNP2o

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234485759878?hash=item369870bf86:g:SngAAOSwd8piQpZd

Offline faustxxx

  • Posts: 272
Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2022, 03:35:41 PM »
Its a shame, This auction was up for a week and I was out bid at the last second.  I bid 21.00 and it went for I think 21.50  COMC was selling it.   Low and behold the exact card is up on COMC for a buy it now of 56.00.  This one reeks of shill bidding.  At least wait a week (not the next day) to repost it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234472704057?hash=item3697a98839:g:VaQAAOSwb4JiNP2o

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234485759878?hash=item369870bf86:g:SngAAOSwd8piQpZd
    So, the guy never sold it and did NOT send you a second chance? Can that be reported to eBay fraud center? You should have the option of buying it for what your bid was.

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 3097
Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2022, 04:24:31 PM »
To be fair, this is not proof of shilling. COMC is a consignment service, so itís possible whoever won the auction just put it back up on COMC. Thatís exactly the problem with consignment selling, it places a barrier of anonymity between the actual seller and the buyer that is difficult to penetrate.

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2022, 05:01:46 PM »
Dave,
That is exactly what they said as I did write them.  My response was SUUURRRE!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1347
Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2022, 05:22:44 PM »
I see people attempting to flip cards all the time. Morally bankrupt? Yes. Evidence of shill bidding? Not necessarily. Hotel? Trivago.

Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2022, 08:17:56 PM »
To be fair, this is not proof of shilling. COMC is a consignment service, so itís possible whoever won the auction just put it back up on COMC. Thatís exactly the problem with consignment selling, it places a barrier of anonymity between the actual seller and the buyer that is difficult to penetrate.
So lots of us are math guys....what are the odds the winner of the auction happens to know COMC is a consignment operation and immediately decided to relist the same auction that had limited interest for a higher price?  In the realm of statistical liklihood and common sense, I give it 1% vs the 99% chance that COMC seller shilled it themselves and told COMC to relist it.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2022, 08:19:31 PM »
I see people attempting to flip cards all the time. Morally bankrupt? Yes. Evidence of shill bidding? Not necessarily. Hotel? Trivago.
Of course this is "evidence" of shill bidding, is it iron clad proof, no, iron clad proof of shill bidding is tough but in the realm if probability, this is well over 90%.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2022, 03:29:36 AM »
Ernie,
You saw the same picture I did.  There is a chance that it is a normal "buy and flip" by another person.  However in the time span of less than 12 hours to have all the info available and have it resisted on their site?  Highly unlikely?  I did get no response when I reresuponded to the email that I agree that it could happen but would you check if it is the same person and let me know. 

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2022, 04:43:11 AM »
That probably is the most likely scenario, but there are eBay sellers who do this all the time. They constantly place conservative bids on tons of auctions hoping to pick up a few bargains which they immediately list at a much higher buy it now.

Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2022, 10:16:40 AM »
Ernie,
You saw the same picture I did.  There is a chance that it is a normal "buy and flip" by another person.  However in the time span of less than 12 hours to have all the info available and have it resisted on their site?  Highly unlikely?  I did get no response when I reresuponded to the email that I agree that it could happen but would you check if it is the same person and let me know.
they copied and pasted their shill bidding guidelines for me.  I told them we all know shill bidding is typically not done overtly with the same id so a posted policy doesn't mean it isn't happening.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2022, 10:18:05 AM »
That probably is the most likely scenario, but there are eBay sellers who do this all the time. They constantly place conservative bids on tons of auctions hoping to pick up a few bargains which they immediately list at a much higher buy it now.
who then use a consignor to flip their items thus cutting into the marginal profit that are already slated to make thinking the market will suddenly value their item much higher the next day?
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2022, 10:48:27 AM »
who then use a consignor to flip their items thus cutting into the marginal profit that are already slated to make thinking the market will suddenly value their item much higher the next day?

Iím not arguing that it is likely a shill Ernie. But there are absolutely sellers who do this. As you know, the ďmarketĒ depends on who is interested in the card that day. They leave the higher buy-it-now up indefinitely with the hope that someone who sees and wants the card that day will be willing to pay more.

I have enabled sellers like this a few times. I bid $86 for a 1973 BB card I wanted, which I knew was a little below market, but I hoped for a good deal. Another bidder outbid me and won it for $87, relisting it immediately for $119. It sat for months taunting me with its presence, and after a few weeks of not being able to find any cards I wanted I finally said what the hell and bought it.

Look at the listings of eBay seller anthjos. This is basically all he does, buy cards cheaply in auctions (probably winning the auctions only 5% of the time), and relist them $10 higher on buy it now with crappy pictures. It must work to some degree because heís been doing it for years.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 10:51:21 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2022, 12:04:04 PM »
The only problem with this scenario is a 1991 graded Wacky is really only worth 20 bucks (PSA 10)  For someone to try and get 56 dollars is just gouging people.  As I said it very well could be the scenario that was suggested.  However I, on this one am leaning towards someone who didnt want to let his item go for 21 bucks even though that is all it is really worth. 

Offline Bigmuc13

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2022, 10:14:55 AM »
I see people attempting to flip cards all the time. Morally bankrupt? Yes. Evidence of shill bidding? Not necessarily. Hotel? Trivago.

Why do you think "flipping" cards is morally bankrupt?  I buy and resell and repackage all kinds of things all the time.  Once a buyer has purchased something at an agreed price, he or she can do whatever they want with it. That's  why you buy it.  If the seller care's about what happens to it after it is sold, then don't sell it.
Still looking for Series 17

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2022, 01:24:31 PM »
On this one it is suspect that the seller bid up the price and relisted it back as a buy it now.  I truly do not believe that someone bought it and relisted it within 12 hours

Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2022, 08:32:36 PM »
On this one it is suspect that the seller bid up the price and relisted it back as a buy it now.  I truly do not believe that someone bought it and relisted it within 12 hours
And the consignor just doesn't care.
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Offline NationalSpittoon

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2022, 02:01:07 AM »
Why do you think "flipping" cards is morally bankrupt?  I buy and resell and repackage all kinds of things all the time.  Once a buyer has purchased something at an agreed price, he or she can do whatever they want with it. That's  why you buy it.  If the seller care's about what happens to it after it is sold, then don't sell it.

Okay, maybe not morally bankrupt. But Iíve always thought itís quite shitty to purchase something that someone else clearly wants for their collection and sell it at a higher price - knowingly luring them in.

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2022, 07:12:01 AM »
And the consignor just doesn't care.
I channeled my inner Ernie and wrote COMC.  They claimed that, just as Dave said people buy and sell that quick on their site.  I then asked "well ok I get that but would you check if they were the same person?"  Nothing but crickets from them.

Offline JailOJohn

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2022, 07:25:16 AM »
Thanks Heavens for the forum, which provides collectors who sell and trade at reasonable prices, instead of the awful E-Bay. Of course, for you high-end collectors, there is going to be some stuff at the top end which can only be had on e-bay...thus the price gouging/shill bidding/flipping that goes on. Not to start a macroeconomics discussion, but do people think this behavior is any different (or worse) than being gouged at the gas pumps or grocery stores? You know, the way every corporation is doing it right now......

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2022, 08:18:44 AM »
Thanks Heavens for the forum, which provides collectors who sell and trade at reasonable prices, instead of the awful E-Bay. Of course, for you high-end collectors, there is going to be some stuff at the top end which can only be had on e-bay...thus the price gouging/shill bidding/flipping that goes on. Not to start a macroeconomics discussion, but do people think this behavior is any different (or worse) than being gouged at the gas pumps or grocery stores? You know, the way every corporation is doing it right now......
I personally am fine with it as long as it is upfront and not hidden or done by deceit.

Offline bigtomi

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2022, 09:13:17 AM »
Iíve always thought itís quite shitty to purchase something that someone else clearly wants [for their collection] and sell it at a higher price - knowingly luring them in.
Hmmmm...this sounds suspiciously like free enterprise to me, not shitterprise.

Offline NationalSpittoon

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2022, 09:19:44 AM »
Hmmmm...this sounds suspiciously like free enterprise to me, not shitterprise.

Iím not saying you shouldnít be allowed; I am just saying I donít support it.

Offline Bigmuc13

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2022, 10:39:13 AM »
Hmmmm...this sounds suspiciously like free enterprise to me, not shitterprise.

I agree.  Basically saying that "someone wants it in their collection" means I want to get it at the price I want and won't pay a higher price because I don't want to.  Market dictates price, everywhere.  I always say anything is exactly worth the price if more than one person is willing to pay that price.
Still looking for Series 17

Offline Bigmuc13

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2022, 10:44:11 AM »
Iím not saying you shouldnít be allowed; I am just saying I donít support it.

I still don't understand where you are coming from.  Let's take a car for example.  One goes up for auction and I win it at a price I am willing to pay.  A little while later I try to sell it to see if there is more demand than when I bought it.  If there is, I sell it for the price that I can get.  That is free enterprise.  It is basically what the stock market is founded on.  So you think it is wrong for people to buy stock at a low price then hope it goes up and if it does then you can sell it?  My retirement literally is banking on that.   Do you not support that as well?  There is risk in any purchase as well.  There is no guarantee that values will increase.
Still looking for Series 17

Offline NationalSpittoon

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2022, 12:31:35 PM »
Why are we comparing the stock market to trading cards? Your situation is also not the same as previously stated in the thread. The buyer, whether it was the seller or not, directly put the item for sale. The market did not change. He is screwing the other buyers. Not sure whatís so hard to understand.

I also said that itís definitely allowed. Doesnít mean I agree with it. This is a hobby not Wall St.

Offline bigtomi

  • Posts: 1985
Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2022, 02:33:18 PM »
This is a hobby not Wall St.
"Now who's being naive, Kay".   8)

I think the main point Bill and I are making is that when something enters the market, it is up to each individual to determine its value to them at that time. In the case of a trading card on eBay, if you don't bid higher than me, I win. If I don't bid higher than you, you win. That's simple. But, if I win something and decide (whether 2 minutes or 2 years) later to sell it at a higher price, that's free enterprise. Not being shitty. You can decide you don't agree with this and that it shouldn't happen, but then I say you're looking at the world through rose-colored glasses.

Offline MoldRush

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2022, 04:39:05 PM »
What Iím wondering is how the eff a 1991 Wacky, ANY 1991 Wacky, became a $26 card, let alone a $56 card?!??!  PSA or whatever, call me naive, but my brain is still in the realm of an unopened pack of 1991s or 1992s being a $2 or $3 item.  I know itís 30 years on now, but come on.  These cards are from the era of black-marked full overstock boxes.  Maybe itís time to dig out the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Dick Tracy the Movie and Desert Storm cards. 😆

Offline 70s_Kid

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2022, 05:14:56 PM »
Not to offend anyone on this forum who may have contributed artwork to the 1991 set, but IMHO it is the worst Wacky set ever released..... 

Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2022, 07:39:02 PM »
I channeled my inner Ernie and wrote COMC.  They claimed that, just as Dave said people buy and sell that quick on their site.  I then asked "well ok I get that but would you check if they were the same person?"  Nothing but crickets from them.
I think I mentioned he did nothing but forward me his policy against shilling.  I too asked him if he made any attempts to link buyer and seller with quick turnaround and also zilch in response.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2022, 07:40:35 PM »
Okay, maybe not morally bankrupt. But Iíve always thought itís quite shitty to purchase something that someone else clearly wants for their collection and sell it at a higher price - knowingly luring them in.
Every item ever sold, someone else wanted so I am not sure how you expect the obtaining and selling ie supply chain process to work.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline MoldRush

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2022, 07:58:15 PM »
Not to offend anyone on this forum who may have contributed artwork to the 1991 set, but IMHO it is the worst Wacky set ever released.....
Would you agree the bigger issue might be how far off the reservation the creators went in terms of product choices?  Thatís always been my beef with this set.  Although movie VHS boxes might work well as part of a subset like what weíve seen in some of the ANS-era subsets, a product like that blended into a general base set just never sat right with me.  And a tee shirt advertising a movie or TV show, like Barf Wimpson and Sick Tracy, just goes completely off the exit ramp for me.  Then youíve got the weird toy items, toy/movie crossover, etc.  Were they afraid of doing an updated parody of a product theyíd spoofed before, and felt they had to find all unique items?  It sort of felt that way, though they did revisit Dunkin Donuts, maybe a couple others.

As for the artwork, sure not all of it was top-notch, but I think at least a handful were done quite well.  Boozco and Carnival Snakes come to mind, Coorpse Light and Gross Blisters cereal pretty good also.  Just my two cents.

Offline ToadallyDude

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2022, 10:48:18 PM »
Haven't been on again for months & picked a weird thread to start with tonight.  But am I missing something here?  Seems like 2 different arguments at the same time... shilling & free markets.  Certainly seems fair for a bidder to buy something for any price they're willing to pay from a seller and then flip it right away for more.  But if the seller and bidder are the same person, not cool.  Might be legal in some cases, but they should just put a reserve price instead & just keep it if it doesn't sell.  Shilling is a lot like the department store's trickery of marking products up 200% one day and then having a "50% Off Sale" the next.  Not illegal, per se, but totally unethical (and surprising how many people still don't understand it when their eyes get lured by "SALE" signs).

And I agree... shill for swill is a double ill.

Offline Plastered Peanut

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2022, 12:34:12 AM »
  Certainly seems fair for a bidder to buy something for any price they're willing to pay from a seller and then flip it right away for more.  But if the seller and bidder are the same person, not cool. 

I thought the same exact thing when the stock market came into the discussion.   Buy and sell all you want, sure....but if you are the same person in a trade (ie, both seller and buyer), get ready to spend some non-quality time in a federal prison if found out.
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Offline ToadallyDude

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2022, 01:05:28 AM »
...Or also like when the guy selling bottles of water for $4 ea. at an event sabotages the drinking fountain.

Offline Bigmuc13

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Re: 1991 psa 10 shill bidding
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2022, 07:05:46 PM »
Haven't been on again for months & picked a weird thread to start with tonight.  But am I missing something here?  Seems like 2 different arguments at the same time... shilling & free markets.  Certainly seems fair for a bidder to buy something for any price they're willing to pay from a seller and then flip it right away for more.  But if the seller and bidder are the same person, not cool.  Might be legal in some cases, but they should just put a reserve price instead & just keep it if it doesn't sell.  Shilling is a lot like the department store's trickery of marking products up 200% one day and then having a "50% Off Sale" the next.  Not illegal, per se, but totally unethical (and surprising how many people still don't understand it when their eyes get lured by "SALE" signs).

And I agree... shill for swill is a double ill.

Exactly, and well said.  I always thing that anyone is able to put any buy it now price on anything they want to.  That doesn't mean anyone has to bid on it. People put crazy prices on things that are worth nothing all the time.
Still looking for Series 17

 

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