Toughest Original Series Titles in High Grade

[drono]

Before anyone ever saw an uncut sheet, why would they care whether 8-Lives had a perfect sheet cut? This is getting silly.

I have to admit that this thread has a high entertainment value like an episode of Jerry Springer, only without the shoe throwing and the bouncers to hold everyone back.  Since I don't have a horse in this race, I haven't commented until now.  I think it would be almost preposterous to expect PSA to have an uncut sheet of every series, lay out the perfect cut lines, then come up with an individualized grading standard for the centering of each card.  For most sets that wouldn't be necessary since there is symmetry everywhere, and in those cases, every card's standard would be the same.  Apparently for Wacky Packages, and other sets without fixed borders, that might not be the case. 

I can see arguments for both sides here, and that's part of the reason why I don't collect graded cards.  It's just not that important to me, and I certainly don't see where ridiculously (bordering on foolish?) amounts of money are being thrown at PSA 10s.  I do see the aspect of the registration and the competition, but I'm just not that competitive either.  Of course, I don't understand the infatuation with Crypto or NFTs either, so maybe I'm just too old school.

[bandaches]

Why has grading been used in all collectible hobbies going back centuries? Because a way of quantifying condition  and eye appeal based desirability was needed. That is all a grading system is. Before anyone ever saw an uncut sheet, why would they care whether 8-Lives had a perfect sheet cut? This is getting silly.

the silly part of this is a criteria that declares certain titles can't possible exist in perfect form.

[Paul_Maul]

the silly part of this is a criteria that declares certain titles can't possible exist in perfect form.

You’re entitled to your opinion. If sheets were produced so that every Clammy had print streaks, I would say the same thing. If one doesn’t exist that is free of production defects, so be it.

[bandaches]

I have to admit that this thread has a high entertainment value like an episode of Jerry Springer, only without the shoe throwing and the bouncers to hold everyone back.  Since I don't have a horse in this race, I haven't commented until now.  I think it would be almost preposterous to expect PSA to have an uncut sheet of every series, lay out the perfect cut lines, then come up with an individualized grading standard for the centering of each card.  For most sets that wouldn't be necessary since there is symmetry everywhere, and in those cases, every card's standard would be the same.  Apparently for Wacky Packages, and other sets without fixed borders, that might not be the case. 

I can see arguments for both sides here, and that's part of the reason why I don't collect graded cards.  It's just not that important to me, and I certainly don't see where ridiculously (bordering on foolish?) amounts of money are being thrown at PSA 10s.  I do see the aspect of the registration and the competition, but I'm just not that competitive either.  Of course, I don't understand the infatuation with Crypto or NFTs either, so maybe I'm just too old school.

You are exactly right, PSA can't possible know sheet configurations but given they have specific documented guidelines in terms of "atypical cuts" getting an MC qualifier, then the "perfectly border centered" Crammy must have such a qualifier....but maybe with the billions of $ PSA makes they should be expected to be experts in everything they grade and should have a clue about non sport cards with peculiar cuttings.....

[Paul_Maul]

I can see arguments for both sides here, and that's part of the reason why I don't collect graded cards.  It's just not that important to me, and I certainly don't see where ridiculously (bordering on foolish?) amounts of money are being thrown at PSA 10s.

I don’t care about the registry. I don’t care about the distinction between PSA 9 and PSA 10. I just like nice condition wackys. I hunted down the nicest wackys I could find for ten years before I even considered submitting a card to PSA. PSA is just an imperfect means to an end. What we are talking about here is what it means for a card to be high grade. As you say, for many years no one even knew what an uncut sheet looked like, so fidelity to some sheet based ideal is unrealistic and meaningless.

[bandaches]

You’re entitled to your opinion. If sheets were produced so that every Clammy had print streaks, I would say the same thing. If one doesn’t exist that is free of production defects, so be it.

Thousands of Clammys exist with typical/perfect per manufacturer cuts.  It just so happens they irk your eye appeal.  Those Clammys don't have flaws in either of the categories you called out, not a manufacture flaw nor handling flaws.  Is eye appeal a third grading category validating your theory that none can be perfect?

[Paul_Maul]

You are exactly right, PSA can't possible know sheet configurations but given they have specific documented guidelines in terms of "atypical cuts" getting an MC qualifier, then the "perfectly border centered" Crammy must have such a qualifier....but maybe with the billions of $ PSA makes they should be expected to be experts in everything they grade and should have a clue about non sport cards with peculiar cuttings.....

You may be right that PSA’s published grading standards are inconsistent or foolish. Again, I’m just talking about what I think high grade should mean, and what I think PSA should do.

[Paul_Maul]

Thousands of Clammys exist with typical/perfect per manufacturer cuts.  It just so happens they irk your eye appeal.

Thousands of Clammys don’t exist that are free of production defects. I guess your definition of defect differs from mine, if that is the case, there is nothing further to discuss.

[Paul_Maul]

Thousands of Clammys exist with typical/perfect per manufacturer cuts.  It just so happens they irk your eye appeal.  Those Clammys don't have flaws in either of the categories you called out, not a manufacture flaw nor handling flaws.  Is eye appeal a third grading category validating your theory that none can be perfect?

Laying out the sheet is part of the manufacturing process. The Clammy problem is the result of a manufacturing/production error.

[bandaches]

Laying out the sheet is part of the manufacturing process. The Clammy problem is the result of a manufacturing/production error.

Error only because you said so, the output of their process was clammy didn't sit aligned per your need for eye appeal. If after 1800 messages, you only now discovered that I have been saying this all along and only now have declared there is nothing more to talk about, that is odd.

[Paul_Maul]

Error only because you said so, the output of their process was clammy didn't sit aligned per your need for eye appeal. If after 1800 messages, you only now discovered that I have been saying this all along and only now have declared there is nothing more to talk about, that is odd.

Ernie, if you actually believe that off center cards are downgraded because of a lack of fidelity to the proper sheet cut rather than because of poor eye appeal, I don’t know what else to say. You’re right, I probably should have realized the futility of this discussion pages ago. 🙂

[bandaches]

Ernie, if you actually believe that off center cards are downgraded because of a lack of fidelity to the proper sheet cut rather than because of poor eye appeal, I don’t know what else to say. You’re right, I probably should have realized the futility of this discussion pages ago. 🙂

I refer to definitions given by the graders and you seem unhappy with the definition of "grade" and definition of "atypical cut"....neither makes any reference to eye appeal, grading is supposed to be scientific.  You are right, had I known you believe subjectivity like polls and whose eye's an item is appealing are important in grading, I too should have realized this discussion was fruitless 

[Bigmuc13]

I have an interesting interjection.  We only know that Clammy needs to be 'miscut' to be perfectly centered because we have actual full sheets to look at.  So what of there were no surviving series 6 full sheets?  then we would think that the 'miscut' Clammy was the perfect one, and the one with other stickers intruding on it were the miscut ones.  Food for thought.

[bandaches]

I have an interesting interjection.  We only know that Clammy needs to be 'miscut' to be perfectly centered because we have actual full sheets to look at.  So what of there were no surviving series 6 full sheets?  then we would think that the 'miscut' Clammy was the perfect one, and the one with other stickers intruding on it were the miscut ones.  Food for thought.

Not following, the existence of sheets is only explaining what has been found in the wild. it is not driving grading.  Dave has argued regardless of the existence of sheets, neither is perfect, there is no such perfect Clammy as to center the borders requires another sticker to appear and the ones without centered borders are off center.  The fact that centered borders can only exist with another sticker showing is evidence enough that the manufacturer placement of the sticker was such that the borders would not be centered on a perfectly cut one.  Clearly the manufacturer specifications were not such that an intended cut would include another sticker which is the absurdity that a special high spending collector could suggest that PSA suddenly not declare such a specimen as miscut.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

a modern title, but apparently one that can never be a PSA10, even when it is perfectly cut, and has nice, pointy corners.

[NationalSpittoon]

a modern title, but apparently one that can never be a PSA10, even when it is perfectly cut, and has nice, pointy corners.

Well said! I believe you.

[NationalSpittoon]

Hopefully this is how Maddie Boy is placed on a sheet so it can grade a PSA 10!

[bandaches]

Hopefully this is how Maddie Boy is placed on a sheet so it can grade a PSA 10!

Even though your post is in jest, it indicates to me that you not only disagree with the points Patrick and I have made, you really aren't digesting it either.  A manufacturer would never have its manufacturing specifications cut across two titles.  The real scary thing would be is if a high profile customer argues that this maddie boy should not get an "atypical cut" designation.  That is the more realistic fear based on this recent dialogue.

[Paul_Maul]

Let’s summarize:

1. PSA should not make a change in how they grade Clammys because Darrell says they should
2. A card should be graded based on its standalone appearance, not what a sheet suggests should be a typical cut, as “typical cut” is well-defined only in a statistical manner and a sheet may not be available. If PSA says otherwise, they are wrong.
3. A Clammy with a piece of Baby Runt showing should be given a “miscut” qualifier; no Clammy should be graded higher than an 8.
4. Nobody cares whether a Flashback sticker gets a 10 or not, but Dr. Peeper should not get one either.
5. An 8-Lives that is well centered should get a higher grade than one with a “typical cut,” no matter what PSA’s grading policies suggest, and no matter whether a small piece of another sticker’s invisible border might be on it, since it may not be possible to determine that if a sheet is not available.

Did I miss anything?

[NationalSpittoon]

Let’s summarize:

1. PSA should not make a change in how they grade Clammys because Darrell says they should
2. A card should be graded based on its standalone appearance, not what a sheet suggests should be a typical cut, as “typical cut” is well-defined only in a statistical manner and a sheet may not be available. If PSA says otherwise, they are wrong.
3. A Clammy with a piece of Baby Runt showing should be given a “miscut” qualifier; no Clammy should be graded higher than an 8.
4. Nobody cares whether a Flashback sticker gets a 10 or not, but Dr. Peeper should not get one either.
5. An 8-Lives that is well centered should get a higher grade than one with a “typical cut,” no matter what PSA’s grading policies suggest, and no matter whether a small piece of another sticker’s invisible border might be on it, since it may not be possible to determine that if a sheet is not available.

Did I miss anything?

Succinct and all-encompassing! Fantastic post!

[bandaches]

Let’s summarize:

1. PSA should not make a change in how they grade Clammys because Darrell says they should
2. A card should be graded based on its standalone appearance, not what a sheet suggests should be a typical cut, as “typical cut” is well-defined only in a statistical manner and a sheet may not be available. If PSA says otherwise, they are wrong.
3. A Clammy with a piece of Baby Runt showing should be given a “miscut” qualifier; no Clammy should be graded higher than an 8.
4. Nobody cares whether a Flashback sticker gets a 10 or not, but Dr. Peeper should not get one either.
5. An 8-Lives that is well centered should get a higher grade than one with a “typical cut,” no matter what PSA’s grading policies suggest, and no matter whether a small piece of another sticker’s invisible border might be on it, since it may not be possible to determine that if a sheet is not available.

Did I miss anything?

I am sure you missed some since your summary is a subset of the many conflicting views on this and not any one point of view.

[Plastered Peanut]

but my other brother "Dariel"  told me.....

  my latest son with 4 legs is named Darryl....my niece asked is that a name from the 80's?   Actually it's a soul mate of mine, but he doesn't know it, who was named in the 60's.   

[Plastered Peanut]

Just checking out your initial lists, I would add due to my own experience:

9:  Stickers   (did you have that one?   didn't want to go back to the post....)
11:   Sleepy
16:   Dirty Cell

[70s_Kid]

looking for a PSA 10 Cram..... can you help?  On second thought   

[NationalSpittoon]

looking for a PSA 10 Cram..... can you help?  On second thought   

Cram does not have a different card’s border when properly centered.

[bandaches]

Cram does not have a different card’s border when properly centered.

Maybe it does, it just happens to be white border as Patrick called out! 

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

looking for a PSA 10 Cram..... can you help?  On second thought   

Original die cut or alternate die cut? 

[Paul_Maul]

Original die cut or alternate die cut?

One of each, but only humble PSA 8s….

[Plastered Peanut]

One of each, but only humble PSA 8s…

For those relatively new to the hobby, the left one is affectionately known as the "Cram Maggie".      It's the die-cut meant for Nastee Crush, and is named after the puppy dog of the guy who originally pointed out this die cut alternative.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

For those relatively new to the hobby, the left one is affectionately known as the "Cram Maggie".      It's the die-cut meant for Nastee Crush, and is named after the puppy dog of the guy who originally pointed out this die cut alternative.

this one will always and forever be the Cram-Nastee variation to me.

an obscure Delphi forum post about a well known die-cut difference is a strange way to label this, and one I will always object to.

[NationalSpittoon]

this one will always and forever be the Cram-Nastee variation to me.

an obscure Delphi forum post about a well known die-cut difference is a strange way to label this, and one I will always object to.

This is also how I’ve always called it too. It seems much less confusing.

[Plastered Peanut]

this one will always and forever be the Cram-Nastee variation to me.

an obscure Delphi forum post about a well known die-cut difference is a strange way to label this, and one I will always object to.

Simply an observation from the past, when I got back into the hobby.   Hence the adverb "affectionately", not "officially".   Call it whatever.