Toughest Original Series Titles in High Grade

[NationalSpittoon]

I believe I made one of these topics when I first came here, and at that point I was very inexperienced in the wacky realm. This is always one of my favorite topics. For each series, I am going to point out five titles of which seem more difficult in high grade for one reason or another. You all are encouraged to list some toughies in your experience as well. These are roughly listed in order from toughest in the set to least tough (out of the five that I chose), but the listings are not always so concrete.

1973 Series 1 WB
     This set is unique in its sheet distribution, but it ironically does not entirely correlate with toughness in high grade. here is my list:
Kook Aid
Grave Train
Band-Ache
Lavirus
Dopey Whip

1973 Series 2 WB
     This set boasts an impressive list of commonly miscut and off-centered titles, so picking five is not easy. 8-Lives and Cap'n Crud are likely candidates for the top toughest in the entire original series.
8-Lives
Cap'n Crud
Botch Tape
Brittle
Ditch Masters

1973 Series 3 TB
     Conversely to series 2, I consider most of this set to be relatively easy to find in high grade. This effort is exacerbated if you don't mind egregious toning on every copy. However, a few titles stand out among the rest...
Raw Leaves
Sweathard
Wheez-It
Windchester
Rice-a-Phoni

1973 Series 4
Choke Wagon
Blue Beanie
Brute 88
Windhex
Mustard Charge

1973/4 Series 5
     For reference, I have the most experience hunting for high grade titles in this set - so this list may hold a bit more water than the other series.
Shot Wheels
Muleburro
Krazy Crackers
Hungry Jerk
Triks Cereal

1974 Series 6
Clammy
Bar-Kist
Mold Rush
Truant
What Man's

1974 Series 7
     Like series 3, this one doesn't generally seem difficult besides a few exceptions. I think most mid-series are this way, the majority of concern lying in roller marks.
Feetena
Leek
Contrac
Hurtz Baked Bears
Sorry Wrap

1974 Series 8
Kentucky Fried Fingers
Knots
Kong Fu
Rolaches
Hardly Wrap

1974 Series 9
     This series is quite tough to pick five for! "Stickers" is an honorable mention.
Jerky Fruits
Pig Pen Oil
GI Toe
Foolite
Delinquent Spinach

1974 Series 10
Greaseline
Fishey Prize
Tic Toc
Uncle Bums
Caraid

1974 Series 11
     Roller marks plague this set, and majority of the latter half of the checklist is excruciatingly difficult to find in high grade. The top three are pretty much interchangeable.
Alpain
Bash
Fib Deterrent
King o' Scare
Comit

1975 Series 12
     The top three are noticeably more difficult than the rest in my opinion.
Wash 'n Fly
Battle Caps
Creep
Siesta
Martian Hats

1975 Series 13 TB
Dumb and Crazy
Doomed Matches
Don't-Touch-Mee
Ape Green Beans
Ale Detergent

1975 Series 14 WB
Ain't Toothpaste
Hippy Trash Bags
Irish Ring
Polarbearoid
Rebell Jet

1975 Series 15
     This series has some of the titles with the biggest diamond cut/tilt issues in the OS.
Earth Barn
Electric Slave
Fang Edward
Jerkitol
Petley

1976 Series 16
Floral
Old Grandmom
Cracked
Ram-A-Liar
Clubbed Canadian

Let me know what you guys/gals think. Also feel free to share if you have any nice examples of some of the tough titles.

[faustxxx]

     Series 14 tri-fold.

[Paul_Maul]

You are pretty much right on the money with all of these. The only thing I would add is that certain 2nd series titles seem tougher as tan backs, notably Awful Bits, Run Tony, Chicken Fat, and Putrid.

[NationalSpittoon]

You are pretty much right on the money with all of these. The only thing I would add is that certain 2nd series titles seem tougher as tan backs, notably Awful Bits, Run Tony, Chicken Fat, and Putrid.

Yes. This is why I tried to delineate backing types for each series. Although, I feel that series 2 is the only one that makes a big difference in terms of individual titles being more difficult (I.E. Awful Bits TB, Run Tony TB, et al.). Even in series 1, I haven't seen that TB's or ludlow backs are more difficult on individual titles. Rather, all TB's are prone for miscut for example.

     Series 14 tri-fold.

This is true. Just the way that series 14 tans are all likely OC or miscut, and all prone to roller marks at that.

[jleonard1967]

I would only add two more Muler Dregg's series 11 and Shrunken donuts series 13 Those are two of the hardest I am trying to find in high grade.  If I had to pick the hardest total series it would be series 14.  Holy cow is that one hard Satan wrap that one is highest a 8 from PSA.  I run into roller marks or off center.  Also Faustxxx is correct on series 14 tri-folds. That series wow most of the series the highest graded is a 6 or a 5.  just can't get high grade cards in that run.   

[bandaches]

is this thread really about "high grade" as opposed to centered as defined by visual appearance due to placement on a sheet?  Typically the hardest cards of any set to find in high grade would be the ones on the top of bottom of a stack that might be rubberbanded or face the highest risk of exposure, otherwise the chances of any card being handled and thus in lesser condition would be more likely a function of it being traded or handled more.  Many of the titles on this list don't seem to fall into the latter categories I mentioned.

[Paul_Maul]

The “top card” theory has always been around, and it may be true to some degree, but PSA populations would suggest that centering problems caused by sheet position are a more serious factor in thwarting high grades.

[NationalSpittoon]

Centering is a factor in grade, no? Just the way that miscut is? Factory prone errors are still a factor in grade… of course rubber band marks, writing, and other user inflicted blemishes impact grade but in terms of the larger picture they don’t impact the overall ability to find certain cards in high grade vs. others.

What do you think about roller marks in regard with high grades?

[jleonard1967]

is this thread really about "high grade" as opposed to centered as defined by visual appearance due to placement on a sheet?  Typically the hardest cards of any set to find in high grade would be the ones on the top of bottom of a stack that might be rubberbanded or face the highest risk of exposure, otherwise the chances of any card being handled and thus in lesser condition would be more likely a function of it being traded or handled more.  Many of the titles on this list don't seem to fall into the latter categories I mentioned.

I think there can be two categories of "high grade cards". One would be Man made defectors, Ernie stated top card and bottom card.  I would even throw in favorite cards that get handled more.  Then there are ones that are manufacture based.  Those would be roller marks and positioning on the sheets. 

[Bigmuc13]

What do you think about roller marks in regard with high grades?

PSA does not like roller marks at all.  They seem to take off a lot when grading cards that are otherwise near perfect but have the roller marks.  I am usually pretty picky, but for some reason the roller marks don't bother me at all.

[NationalSpittoon]

PSA does not like roller marks at all.  They seem to take off a lot when grading cards that are otherwise near perfect but have the roller marks.  I am usually pretty picky, but for some reason the roller marks don't bother me at all.

I believe any card they note with roller marks is immediately a 6. I also think this is moronic considering some of the stuff they don’t penalize for but that’s just me.

[RawGoo]

PSA does not like roller marks at all.  They seem to take off a lot when grading cards that are otherwise near perfect but have the roller marks.  I am usually pretty picky, but for some reason the roller marks don't bother me at all.

The roller marks don't bother me much, either. 

[quas]

I think they kind of add character since they essentially prove that you're getting the real deal from 1973.

[bandaches]

The “top card” theory has always been around, and it may be true to some degree, but PSA populations would suggest that centering problems caused by sheet position are a more serious factor in thwarting high grades.

Centering problems due to sheet position are eye appeal problems, not true centering issues per the intended cut by the manufacturer.

[bandaches]

Centering is a factor in grade, no? Just the way that miscut is? Factory prone errors are still a factor in grade… of course rubber band marks, writing, and other user inflicted blemishes impact grade but in terms of the larger picture they don’t impact the overall ability to find certain cards in high grade vs. others.

What do you think about roller marks in regard with high grades?

Centering is a factor in the grade but if a card by definition is "off center" on a sheet but cut perfectly per manufacturer intent so all the rest of the cards in that same row or column are perfect, is that card really off center or does it lack eye appeal?  your other questions are good ones, I think in terms of coins and "degrading" starts the the day it leaves the manufacturer's hands, any issues before that are manufacturing errors which of course are far more scarce than the rest of the population for the same item but collector cards have declared those as misfit toys as opposed to more scarce manufacturing flaws.

[bandaches]

PSA does not like roller marks at all.  They seem to take off a lot when grading cards that are otherwise near perfect but have the roller marks.  I am usually pretty picky, but for some reason the roller marks don't bother me at all.

Same here, I hardly notice roller marks but I also don't obsess with high grade cards either even though my keeper collection is very high grade, that is a result of just taking the best of thousands of cards I accumulated in collections, I don't have any specific cards I have declared as "need to upgrade" and I would say the last several thousand cards I have come across I haven't even bothered to see if they are upgrades so my extras stash is loaded with high grade cards.  When someone finally buys me out, they will displace the leading collections in grade as I will probably include my keeper wackys during such a buyout and just start to collect them all over again.

[Paul_Maul]

Centering problems due to sheet position are eye appeal problems, not true centering issues per the intended cut by the manufacturer.

There are two possible issues:

1. Cards at the edges of sheets tend to be OC and miscut more often even if their placement on the sheet is proper

2. Cards are placed on the sheet in such a way as to be OC when properly cut

#2 is much less common than #1. Most of the high grade condition rarities are of #1 type. I believe there are a few that fall into #2 (8-Lives, Capn Crud) but to be sure I would have to examine an actual sheet as the imperfections are very slight. There are definitely a few titles that were placed slightly tilted on the sheet so that their cards almost always appear tilted (Choke King, Eviltime, Jerkitol, etc.) but PSA doesn’t really penalize that.

[NationalSpittoon]

So an OC card is not OC because the manufacturer erringly put it on the sheet incorrectly? That makes no sense to me. The guides for centering are pretty clear if you take the time to measure the image and edges of the card to find the proportional centering; I don't think any manufacturing issue makes a difference. 8-Lives may or may not (not sure) have been placed on the sheet incorrectly, but that doesn't make all of those OC cards centered.

[jleonard1967]

Clammy is a good example.  To be centered on this card, you will have a portion of another card on it.  Makes it look like a miscut but you get a grade that is desirable as this is the only way you can get a perfectly centered card

[jleonard1967]

Here is an example of what I’m saying

[NationalSpittoon]

Clammy should never exist in PSA 8 or higher. If it’s centered, it’s miscut. If it’s missing the Baby Runt border, it’s OC.

[Paul_Maul]

Clammy should never exist in PSA 8 or higher. If it’s centered, it’s miscut. If it’s missing the Baby Runt border, it’s OC.

I’m with you.

Is the reason Baby Runt doesn’t suffer from the same problem as Clammy simply that it has less border space overall (on both sides)?

[bandaches]

There are two possible issues:

1. Cards at the edges of sheets tend to be OC and miscut more often even if their placement on the sheet is proper

2. Cards are placed on the sheet in such a way as to be OC when properly cut

#2 is much less common than #1. Most of the high grade condition rarities are of #1 type. I believe there are a few that fall into #2 (8-Lives, Capn Crud) but to be sure I would have to examine an actual sheet as the imperfections are very slight. There are definitely a few titles that were placed slightly tilted on the sheet so that their cards almost always appear tilted (Choke King, Eviltime, Jerkitol, etc.) but PSA doesn’t really penalize that.

This categorization seems spot on and again, in both cases the "grade" flaw is manufacturing not a degrade after manufacturing.  Our hobby just happens to have more manufacturing flaws which are found to be annoying as opposed to sought like with coins even though it seems clear to me there would be fewer manufacturing flaws for a given title than ones without manufacturing flaws hence manufacturing flawed titled would be more scarce but again in our hobby not more sought.

[bandaches]

So an OC card is not OC because the manufacturer erringly put it on the sheet incorrectly? That makes no sense to me. The guides for centering are pretty clear if you take the time to measure the image and edges of the card to find the proportional centering; I don't think any manufacturing issue makes a difference. 8-Lives may or may not (not sure) have been placed on the sheet incorrectly, but that doesn't make all of those OC cards centered.

Just because it irks you, doesn't make it untrue.  If the manufacturer definition of centered results in image to edge differences, that is still centered and your eye appeal examples are off centered per manufacturer specifications.  This all feeds into my stance that I think it is nuts that you guys want to pay someone else to tell you to like the eye appeal of a card.  You all clearly have a great eye for grading and don't need someone else to sign off on it for you.

[bandaches]

Here is an example of what I’m saying

wow, that is incredible that PSA ignores the presence of the other card on this and really obsessed with border to edge centering.

[NationalSpittoon]

Just because it irks you, doesn't make it untrue.  If the manufacturer definition of centered results in image to edge differences, that is still centered and your eye appeal examples are off centered per manufacturer specifications.  This all feeds into my stance that I think it is nuts that you guys want to pay someone else to tell you to like the eye appeal of a card.  You all clearly have a great eye for grading and don't need someone else to sign off on it for you.

I simply just do not follow your logic. Each card is hypothetically the same size, so the image is either centered or not on each. The size of the image proportionally measures out to define how centered it is per the entire card. I don’t understand how the sheet placement changes that. Yes, good centering enhances eye appeal but centering is quantifiable.

[Paul_Maul]

wow, that is incredible that PSA ignores the presence of the other card on this and really obsessed with border to edge centering.

Daryl Swiggart convinced them to do it, I think it’s ridiculous.

[Paul_Maul]

I simply just do not follow your logic. Each card is hypothetically the same size, so the image is either centered or not on each. The size of the image proportionally measures out to define how centered it is per the entire card. I don’t understand how the sheet placement changes that. Yes, good centering enhances eye appeal but centering is quantifiable.

Yes, exactly how the image came to be centered as it is on the card seems like behind the scenes irrelevance. It is how it looks.

[jleonard1967]

Dave,
I agree with you that it looks terrible.  I personally see it as a detraction from the card.  I do though see why Darrell fought to make it that way as the centering on it needs to be cut at that line.  I take it as subjective, you either like it or not.  However to get the higher grade if you are a registry collector you need to "play the game"  I will say before this one, the highest I had was a 7, however it did not have the other card in the border. 

[NationalSpittoon]

To me, that card should not objectively have gotten that grade. No matter if Darryl begged them to or not, it is still miscut. No matter how subjective the eye appeal is on that Baby Runt border, objectively the card should not score that high.

[70s_Kid]

You are spot on with your assessment.....  I may have a few examples of exceptions in my keeper set...   

[70s_Kid]

To me, that card should not objectively have gotten that grade. No matter if Darryl begged them to or not, it is still miscut. No matter how subjective the eye appeal is on that Baby Runt border, objectively the card should not score that high.

but my other brother "Dariel"  told me..... 

[bandaches]

Clammy should never exist in PSA 8 or higher. If it’s centered, it’s miscut. If it’s missing the Baby Runt border, it’s OC.

This declaration by you and Dave is exactly why my point is right.  To declare a certain card can't possibly be PSA10 is ridiculous.

[bandaches]

Yes, exactly how the image came to be centered as it is on the card seems like behind the scenes irrelevance. It is how it looks.

  Manufacturing specifications are not irrelevant.  A perfectly cut card with perfect manufacturing specifications is a perfect card just because you don't like the manufacturer decision to not center the image doesnt make it less than perfect.

[bandaches]

Daryl Swiggart convinced them to do it, I think it’s ridiculous.

who is Daryl Swiggart and why does he or anyone have "pull" on how PSA grades a card?  That is extremely alarming.