Art Spiegelman's book under scrutiny

[bigtomi]

I don't like getting into political/social issues on this board, but I find this school district's action ridiculous:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maus-pulitzer-prize-winning-book-holocaust-pulled-tennessee-school-dis-rcna13730

[Lavirus]

The best way to get kids to read is to ban books:https://www.readingeagle.com/2022/01/13/teens-come-out-for-newly-created-kutztown-banned-book-club/

[Paul_Maul]

I don't like getting into political/social issues on this board, but I find this school district's action ridiculous:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maus-pulitzer-prize-winning-book-holocaust-pulled-tennessee-school-dis-rcna13730

I haven’t read Maus. I am sure it’s excellent. That doesn’t necessarily mean it is appropriate for 8th graders though. I guess that’s a judgment call.

The article’s citation of “attempts to ban teaching about racism” (an inaccurate reference to complaints specifically about CRT) seems misplaced since the complaint here is primarily about profanity and imagery deemed inappropriate for the age group.

[roughwriter]

I haven’t read Maus. I am sure it’s excellent. That doesn’t necessarily mean it is appropriate for 8th graders though. I guess that’s a judgment call.

The article’s citation of “attempts to ban teaching about racism” (an inaccurate reference to complaints specifically about CRT) seems misplaced since the complaint here is primarily about profanity and imagery deemed inappropriate for the age group.

Is there ANYTHING about war that isn't profane and inappropriate??? The Greek and Roman sculptures are naked as jaybirds, but they aren't banned! And if you can't curse in response to genocide, we really have entered the Twilight Zone!

[Paul_Maul]

Is there ANYTHING about war that isn't profane and inappropriate??? The Greek and Roman sculptures are naked as jaybirds, but they aren't banned! And if you can't curse in response to genocide, we really have entered the Twilight Zone!

Do you think a book with profanity and images of war, death and suicide would be appropriate for 2nd graders, no matter how high quality it is? If not, then it is simply a judgment call as to what age is appropriate for exposure to such unfortunate realities. Despite NBC trying to make it a political issue in their article, schools have to make such decisions, hopefully informed by the input of parents. Of course it’s not easy to get a consensus in this kind of situation.

[Paul_Maul]

I just finished reading Maus, and I don’t see any problem with an 8th grader reading it. In fact, it turns out everything the school board objected to was not from Maus itself, but from the 4 page story “Prisoner on the Hell Planet,” originally published in an underground comic and included in Maus as part of the narrative. Underground comics would generally not be suitable for young teens, and this story is disturbing, but not inappropriate given the context.

[Jean Nutty]

Creating educational curriculum is like a restaurant choosing what to put on their menu.  Not everything is included.  It's inaccurate to claim that a sushi restaurant has banned enchiladas from their establishment because they refuse to serve that type of food. 

This is a unique way of teaching history!

[JasonLiebig]

I was nine years old when the Holocaust mini series came out on television.  And, frankly, it was my first real education of the holocaust.

One that I'm grateful for, because it was an education.

Was it inappropriate for a nine-year-old?  I guess it was more appropriate for me to learn about it through the television than for the nine-year-olds that had to live through it or die because of it. 

Is it political to remove books like this from a curriculum? 

Well, I can say with some confidence that removing a book on the horrors of the holocaust isn't as trivial nor should it be dismissed in the way one would dismiss not serving burritos at a Sushi restaurant.  I realize that it wasn't the intent, but that menu metaphor trivializes this, and I don't believe this is a trivial matter.  At all. 

My opinion: kids should absolutely learn about racism and the horrors of dehumanizing others to the point of genocide.  It's terrible, but it best be learned about, hopefully taught that it is horribly wrong, and internalized as something we should strive to never do as a society or as a person.  Because, left to our own devices, we might not learn about it, and think it doesn't exist. 

At sixteen, I believed the civil rights movement happened in the 1960's, laws were passed, separate-but-equal facilities were done away with, and with it - racism was solved.  I believed that.

I was incorrect in that belief. I'm grateful I've had the opportunity to learn, read and listen to come to a more honest understanding of the world around me. 

[Paul_Maul]

Creating educational curriculum is like a restaurant choosing what to put on their menu.  Not everything is included.  It's inaccurate to claim that a sushi restaurant has banned enchiladas from their establishment because they refuse to serve that type of food. 

This is a unique way of teaching history!

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

These panels are from the 2nd volume, and are much more disturbing than anything in the first volume.

[Paul_Maul]

I was nine years old when the Holocaust mini series came out on television.  And, frankly, it was my first real education of the holocaust.

Was it inappropriate for a nine-year-old?  I guess it was more appropriate for me to learn about it through the television than for the nine-year-olds that had to live through it or die because of it. 
 

There are ways to discuss the issue that are age appropriate. It’s a judgment call.

[JasonLiebig]

There are ways to discuss the issue that are age appropriate. It’s a judgment call.

I am of the mind that, as a default, you gotta look at any scenario where the truths about those horrific things being buried needs to be examined with a LOT of transparency and skepticism.  Our history is full of individuals and groups or affiliations intent on burying the evil deeds of the past for.... well, reasons. 

People SHOULD look forward and highlight the good, but the past is prologue and mistakes of the past shouldn't be forgotten or diminished in an effort to make the path forward more comfortable. 

[NationalSpittoon]

I'm not quite sure that I agree with the book being banned, however I do feel that parents should discuss this issue in this great of detail. I'm not sure that it should be up to schools to relay this information - at least not this graphically, especially not in a way such to instill certain thoughts into young, inquiring minds. But that's just my anti-government sentiment again.

Just the way the news should be, information should be presented in a way that students can formulate their own opinion on the cause. And, something tells me that most students aren't out here supporting mass murder and genocide.

[Paul_Maul]

I am of the mind that, as a default, you gotta look at any scenario where the truths about those horrific things being buried needs to be examined with a LOT of transparency and skepticism.  Our history is full of individuals and groups or affiliations intent on burying the evil deeds of the past for.... well, reasons. 

People SHOULD look forward and highlight the good, but the past is prologue and mistakes of the past shouldn't be forgotten or diminished in an effort to make the path forward more comfortable.

No one in Tennessee or anywhere else I’m aware of is trying to bury discussion of the Holocaust. They just want it done in an age appropriate manner, and that is subjective. I get not wanting to minimize the scope of this atrocity, but teachers manage to discuss WW2, even in high school, without mentioning every barbarity that occurred, or showing graphic images of them. I think most would agree that such elements really are not necessary to provide an honest portrayal of the gravity of these events to minors.

[JasonLiebig]

I'm not quite sure that I agree with the book being banned, however I do feel that parents should discuss this issue in this great of detail. I'm not sure that it should be up to schools to relay this information - at least not this graphically, especially not in a way such to instill certain thoughts into young, inquiring minds. But that's just my anti-government sentiment again.

Just the way the news should be, information should be presented in a way that students can formulate their own opinion on the cause. And, something tells me that most students aren't out here supporting mass murder and genocide.

Interestingly, when the government got out of the news game (via the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine), that's when things got real opinionated. Or at least that's the way it seemed.

So, while any rational person could understand a healthy suspicion of government, of corporations and of their fellow man, getting government out of things isn't necessarily the path to a high road society. 

[JasonLiebig]

No one in Tennessee or anywhere else I’m aware of is trying to bury discussion of the Holocaust.

I actually think this particular banning (or removal from classroom discussions) could be evidence that your conclusion might not be correct. Emphasis fairly on might.

However, add this to the apparent fact that a growing segment of our young population doesn't even know about the holocaust or doesn't believe it's true, and a disturbing picture is painted. One where discussion of the holocaust IS being buried, intentionally or perhaps not, and that's something worth the effort of correcting. And maybe leaving that correction up to the parents, if it can be otherwise avoided, is educationally reckless.

Or maybe it's just about the inappropriateness of cartoon mouse boobs. 

[Paul_Maul]

I actually think this particular banning (or removal from classroom discussions) could be evidence that your conclusion might not be correct. Emphasis fairly on might.

However, add this to the apparent fact that a growing segment of our young population doesn't even know about the holocaust or doesn't believe it's true, and a disturbing picture is painted. One where discussion of the holocaust IS being buried, intentionally or perhaps not, and that's something worth the effort of correcting. And maybe leaving that correction up to the parents, if it can be otherwise avoided, is educationally reckless.

Or maybe it's just about the inappropriateness of cartoon mouse boobs.

What is it about “this particular…removal from discussion” that makes you feel that way? The fact that it’s in Tennessee? If you have any evidence that suggests something sinister here, please share. It seems to me that the “nudity” and “profanity” are only part of an overall concern that this work is (intentionally) graphic and disturbing. I don’t find it that hard to believe that those concerns are legitimate, and would have been voiced for any other work with potentially disturbing content.

A growing portion of our young people know very little about history at all, not just this particular area. I haven’t seen any evidence that discussion of the holocaust is being actively buried in America. I also haven’t seen a large crop of young holocaust deniers in America. But I am completely in favor of making sure no one forgets. It would be ideal to do that in a way that is not overly traumatic to young learners. There is certainly a balance there, since the shocking nature of this crime is a large part of its impact. But again, it is a question of age appropriate degree.

The importance of discussing this issue does not immunize it against parental or community concerns any more than any other content.

[bandaches]

What is it about “this particular…removal from discussion” that makes you feel that way? The fact that it’s in Tennessee? If you have any evidence that suggests something sinister here, please share. It seems to me that the “nudity” and “profanity” are only part of an overall concern that this work is (intentionally) graphic and disturbing. I don’t find it that hard to believe that those concerns are legitimate, and would have been voiced for any other work with potentially disturbing content.

A growing portion of our young people know very little about history at all, not just this particular area. I haven’t seen any evidence that discussion of the holocaust is being actively buried in America. I also haven’t seen a large crop of young holocaust deniers in America. But I am completely in favor of making sure no one forgets. It would be ideal to do that in a way that is not overly traumatic to young learners. There is certainly a balance there, since the shocking nature of this crime is a large part of its impact. But again, it is a question of age appropriate degree.

The importance of discussing this issue does not immunize it against parental or community concerns any more than any other content.

What is a non overly traumatic way to describe a completely traumatic event?  Kids at an early age should be taught to treat all others equally and fairly(yes, I realize that in itself is an issue given there are racists in this country who have no idea they are racist).  Their first clue that they are racist can be to be honest about how that sentence sounds to them, all others should be treated equally and fairly and the ones who immediately want to say "yeah but"....there you have it....Then around middle school and high school years they can be taught the realities and details of how historically that has not been the case many times over and some of the dramatic details make the point. Roots worked for me.  Much more effective than just simply stating African Americans were slaves and abused.

[Paul_Maul]

What is a non overly traumatic way to describe a completely traumatic event?

Again, a question of degree. You can talk about how a group called the Nazis wanted to kill all of the Jewish people, and how evil that was, and how we should make very sure that nothing like that is ever allowed to happen again. I think you could have a very effective discussion like that even in Elementary school. With older kids, I think it is important to make it clear how much suffering the Jews in Europe endured. I’m just not sure there is any school age at which I would be comfortable going into the details of rape, torture, Dr. Mengele’s experiments, etc. Just as I would not show Saving Private Ryan to middle school students in a discussion of WW2.

[JasonLiebig]

I haven’t seen any evidence that discussion of the holocaust is being actively buried in America.

You mean, aside from this instance of this book being removed from a curriculum for decency reasons. Because, I mean, it's literally evidence.  It's just not evidence you believe means that.  Which is fine. 

And, look, I don't have any definitive answers.  But one of the reasons I'm picking apart what you're saying and showcasing how your words can be weaponized against your point, is not just to counter your statement. It's to show an example of the power of language as a means to an end that might not be obvious. 

The history of a lot of bad "isms" is replete with tactics forwarding those isms under the auspices of "protecting the children!".  I think I'm being historically accurate and fair when I state that.  And that history informs my rational suspicions here.