Author Topic: Unopened  (Read 4692 times)

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2020, 05:17:34 AM »
If this is from CB, I wonder what he told them. The box is described as "possibly unique," with an estimated value of $50,000-up.
Right? “Possibly unique”? Doesn’t look that way, since CB posted pictures of a different one here in this thread, along with the statement that he had ‘several’ of them.
Subterfuge to pull in the highest $ bids?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 05:20:08 AM by Fanatical_and_Sickly »

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2020, 05:22:38 AM »
Hmmmm...maybe, but from the damage, the one in this auction is not the one he posted here originally. Different wear patterns and marks. I suppose it could be another one he has.

Maybe he's listing the lesser condition box first to set a value and saving the beautious box for later, greater bids?  This would be awesome to own, but at that value, I'd be afraid to keep it at home!

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2020, 08:08:50 AM »
I guess it’s possible this box isn’t even his. For years I thought that a full 11th series green box didn’t exist (other than the one Matt/Greg had made from loose packs from the Tea guy find), and then two of them turned up from different sources within two years.

Offline drono

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2020, 08:46:39 AM »
If this is from CB, I wonder what he told them. The box is described as "possibly unique," with an estimated value of $50,000-up.

I'd never spend that kind of money when I have other priorities where it would go to better use.  However, it would be ironic that my mother took me to buy my first Wacky Packages stickers (they were out of baseball cards so she suggested getting them instead - and they were 1st Series tans) and the money I'll get from my share of her estate after she passed last January would probably buy this box.

I'd also be torn that it's BBCE wrapped.  I'd definitely want to open it and savor the unopened packs, but I'd definitely keep them that way.  Of course breaking the seal would diminish the value of the box.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 08:51:39 AM by drono »

Offline bigtomi

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2020, 10:35:02 AM »
Of course breaking the seal would diminish the value of the box.
I would disagree, don't think just removing the shrink would affect it, IMO.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2020, 11:59:35 AM »
I would disagree, don't think just removing the shrink would affect it, IMO.

It would certainly affect it dramatically when trying to resell later. But you can always just get it wrapped again, but the price for wrapping an item like this is pretty high. His fee is 8% of the “retail” price. For this box, I imagine his estimate was on the low end, but even if using $20K as an estimate, the fee is $1600.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 12:02:10 PM by Paul_Maul »

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2020, 12:47:13 PM »
It would certainly affect it dramatically when trying to resell later. But you can always just get it wrapped again, but the price for wrapping an item like this is pretty high. His fee is 8% of the “retail” price. For this box, I imagine his estimate was on the low end, but even if using $20K as an estimate, the fee is $1600.

Wow, that's a hefty fee!  I've been toying with getting my 1976 Star Trek box wrapped, but with that kind of fee, I don't know.......  and it is nice to be able to see the packs.

Offline drono

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #77 on: November 25, 2020, 01:11:56 PM »
the price for wrapping an item like this is pretty high. His fee is 8% of the “retail” price.

Is that the same fee for every item?  I have some 1989 Upper Deck Baseball Low Number boxes that I've been thinking about selling, and I'm pondering on whether to get them wrapped first.  I know they're genuine because I bought them in 1989, and they've always been in my possession.  But it appears that counterfeiting is rampant in sports cards unopened items - even rack packs.

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2020, 02:20:03 PM »
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #79 on: November 25, 2020, 02:21:23 PM »
It’s a little high, but individual packs have sold for $1000. I don’t think you can multiply that by 48, but if two wealthy folks really want it, the sky is the limit!
Bill has had his on ebay for awhile and no takers at $999 and he is taking offers.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2020, 02:24:33 PM »
I would disagree, don't think just removing the shrink would affect it, IMO.
I agree with you.   I feel this "wrapping boxes" is another big con in my opinion.  This person who guided this as being the only box known and $50k is obviously not really an expert as we have this box on this thread which is clearly a different box. 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 02:58:35 PM by bandaches »
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2020, 03:53:11 PM »
I agree with you.   I feel this "wrapping boxes" is another big con in my opinion.  This person who guided this as being the only box known and $50k is obviously not really an expert as we have this box on this thread which is clearly a different box.

It is essential for a buyer to know the packs are legit. Steve Hart of BBCE is certifying that and wrapping the box to ensure they have not been tampered with. How is unwrapping the box and thus invalidating that certification not going to hurt the resale price?


Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2020, 03:22:52 AM »
It is essential for a buyer to know the packs are legit. Steve Hart of BBCE is certifying that and wrapping the box to ensure they have not been tampered with. How is unwrapping the box and thus invalidating that certification not going to hurt the resale price?
  So the guy who has no idea there's another Box on the market is an expert in the price of the Box and an expert in knowing if the packs are legit...I trust my own eyes versus paying someone.   Just like why would I pay PSA to judge cards when I can look at them myself.   As big tomi said,  Part of the joy of owning this is being able to see the packs, if people want just trophies to put on their shelves then they should buy trophies  Or for that matter stuff the Box with Styrofoam and wrap it.
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2020, 04:14:59 AM »
  So the guy who has no idea there's another Box on the market is an expert in the price of the Box and an expert in knowing if the packs are legit...I trust my own eyes versus paying someone.   Just like why would I pay PSA to judge cards when I can look at them myself.   As big tomi said,  Part of the joy of owning this is being able to see the packs, if people want just trophies to put on their shelves then they should buy trophies  Or for that matter stuff the Box with Styrofoam and wrap it.

If you feel comfortable assessing the legitimacy of unopened material for yourself, you are welcome to buy uncertified items. You will certainly find them to be less expensive. However, it is a fact that most of the folks buying expensive unopened material do not share your confidence, hence the huge premium paid for material certified by BBCE. Having basically one guy in that kind of powerful position is risky, I will admit, but fortunately he has shown himself to be very ethical and accurate (though a few mistakes have been made over the years).

Someone buying an ungraded high dollar card takes a huge risk that the card will be trimmed, recolored, etc. Unfortunately, with today’s technology, PSA has not even been able to catch all of this. I can see just not buying such cards at all, but certainly buying them ungraded is a mistake.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2020, 12:25:42 PM »
If you feel comfortable assessing the legitimacy of unopened material for yourself, you are welcome to buy uncertified items. You will certainly find them to be less expensive. However, it is a fact that most of the folks buying expensive unopened material do not share your confidence, hence the huge premium paid for material certified by BBCE. Having basically one guy in that kind of powerful position is risky, I will admit, but fortunately he has shown himself to be very ethical and accurate (though a few mistakes have been made over the years).

Someone buying an ungraded high dollar card takes a huge risk that the card will be trimmed, recolored, etc. Unfortunately, with today’s technology, PSA has not even been able to catch all of this. I can see just not buying such cards at all, but certainly buying them ungraded is a mistake.
I don't have plans to ever buy an expensive single card so I guess I have no risk.  I wonder if the grading companies feel compelled to make sure graded items sell for more...do they bid stuff up especially high end items? 
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Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2020, 01:37:00 PM »
Hey guys,

Fascinating aside to this discussion.   PSA (actually Collectors Universe, PSA's parent company) was just acquired for $700 million dollars. 

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/psa-parent-company-agrees-to-700-million-buyout-offer/

The buyer who led the acquisition group is a fellow by the name of Nat Turner, who I've heard may be one of PSA's biggest customers. He's a wealthy guy, entrepreneur and collector who has had a LOT of sports cards graded.

And I kind of chuckle, because at PSA's rates for grading valuable cards, I wonder if the $700 million dollar purchase price will pay for itself in saved grading charges.  :-)

It's just fascinating how much "grading" and graded material has become the sort of front line of high value trading cards. 
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Offline MoldRush

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2020, 03:13:44 PM »
Just my 2 cents on the topic, but based on my knowledge of coin grading services, when you’re talking about a potentially $25 to $50K item like this 1st Series box, you want to know more about the topic than the guy working for the grading service if you really want to be sure you’re getting the real McCoy.  To Ernie’s point, does the grader know what to look for to maximize the likelihood that the packs are genuinely originally sealed and are all “native” to this same box?  There are telltale attributes to look for.  If I’m going to pay an 8% commission for grading, I want a complete written report on everything the grader looked at, justification for his conclusions with photos, etc.  Just returning it with a grade would not be nearly enough for a $1,600.00 fee.  But at the end of the day I would probably still trust my own instincts more than the grading service.  The only thing that really spooks me is outright counterfeiting, which is always improving.  The most innovative thinkers are often on the wrong side of the moral fence.

The coin grading process is popular with “collectors” who have the resources to buy pricey coins but are too busy with their everyday pursuits to acquire the knowledge and experience to evaluate coins themselves.  And there are many coins whose value jumps exponentially from one grade to the next.  Dealers who can charge $10,000, $50,000, or more for one grade higher on a borderline coin will often remove a graded coin from the holder and resubmit repeatedly until somebody gives it the higher grade, even though the lower grade is likely the accurate one.  Once that is accomplished, the profit potential from selling to an unseasoned investor/speculator becomes an easy score.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2020, 03:21:03 PM »
Hey guys,

Fascinating aside to this discussion.   PSA (actually Collectors Universe, PSA's parent company) was just acquired for $700 million dollars. 

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/psa-parent-company-agrees-to-700-million-buyout-offer/

The buyer who led the acquisition group is a fellow by the name of Nat Turner, who I've heard may be one of PSA's biggest customers. He's a wealthy guy, entrepreneur and collector who has had a LOT of sports cards graded.

And I kind of chuckle, because at PSA's rates for grading valuable cards, I wonder if the $700 million dollar purchase price will pay for itself in saved grading charges.  :-)

It's just fascinating how much "grading" and graded material has become the sort of front line of high value trading cards.
8 months ago, Collectors universe was $15 share so he pays like $70 per share and soon the grading market will have 4 players?  Sounds like saturation and confusion to me.  Which grades are the most lucrative?  Watch for massive exposure of high profile cards from each grader listed by national auction sites and serious shill bidding to pump up those prices for graded material!
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Re: Unopened
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2020, 03:25:25 PM »

The coin grading process is popular with “collectors” who have the resources to buy pricey coins but are too busy with their everyday pursuits to acquire the knowledge and experience to evaluate coins themselves.  And there are many coins whose value jumps exponentially from one grade to the next.  Dealers who can charge $10,000, $50,000, or more for one grade higher on a borderline coin will often remove a graded coin from the holder and resubmit repeatedly until somebody gives it the higher grade, even though the lower grade is likely the accurate one.  Once that is accomplished, the profit potential from selling to an unseasoned investor/speculator becomes an easy score.

Same with cracking and resubmitting cards.  And the end result is that the stats get all skewed because the same card can be counted twice or more in the lower grade, and PSA has no way to know or keep track of that.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2020, 04:24:24 PM »
Just my 2 cents on the topic, but based on my knowledge of coin grading services, when you’re talking about a potentially $25 to $50K item like this 1st Series box, you want to know more about the topic than the guy working for the grading service if you really want to be sure you’re getting the real McCoy.  To Ernie’s point, does the grader know what to look for to maximize the likelihood that the packs are genuinely originally sealed and are all “native” to this same box?  There are telltale attributes to look for.  If I’m going to pay an 8% commission for grading, I want a complete written report on everything the grader looked at, justification for his conclusions with photos, etc.  Just returning it with a grade would not be nearly enough for a $1,600.00 fee.  But at the end of the day I would probably still trust my own instincts more than the grading service.  The only thing that really spooks me is outright counterfeiting, which is always improving.  The most innovative thinkers are often on the wrong side of the moral fence.

The coin grading process is popular with “collectors” who have the resources to buy pricey coins but are too busy with their everyday pursuits to acquire the knowledge and experience to evaluate coins themselves.  And there are many coins whose value jumps exponentially from one grade to the next.  Dealers who can charge $10,000, $50,000, or more for one grade higher on a borderline coin will often remove a graded coin from the holder and resubmit repeatedly until somebody gives it the higher grade, even though the lower grade is likely the accurate one.  Once that is accomplished, the profit potential from selling to an unseasoned investor/speculator becomes an easy score.
I bought an unopened case of series 1 reissue boxes.   Boxes as pristine as boxes can get.  The packs were collated in a very certain way.  Do these box grading experts know of this when they assess the pristineness of boxes of wackys?  I doubt it. How many boxes of wackys are pieced together with packs versus packs that came originally with the box?  I'd say reissue boxes have higher % of original packs in boxes but I am highly suspicious of these original series boxes.  does it matter?  Is someone just as happy to get a box full of packs vs a box with original packs from the box?  I couldn't care less as I don't collect full boxes for that reason.  I have very little OCD so none of this matters to me.
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Offline MoldRush

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2020, 04:29:06 PM »
Yes, exactly.  Population data can be flawed because they don’t have a way of recording the “DNA”, if you will, of the raw coin itself, only the barcodes of the slabs they send out.  I’m sure there’s probably some methods that could be employed to limit these repeat submission tactics, such as high-resolution photos that can be compared with high-frequency submissions in the same series, date and grade range, but the finite talent/ resources vs the tremendous submission volumes probably limit what can be done without making the process cost and/or time-prohibitive.

Offline MoldRush

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2020, 04:44:16 PM »
Is someone just as happy to get a box full of packs vs a box with original packs from the box?  I couldn't care less as I don't collect full boxes for that reason.  I have very little OCD so none of this matters to me.
Agreed, there’s really no sound reason to pursue a full OS box given the excessive cost and potential for shenanigans.  If one loves the idea of a full box for display/nostalgia purposes, an empty box with enough packs to cover the bottom one layer deep is more than enough for me.

In Mark Murphy’s book on unopened sports pack collecting, he recommends buying some inexpensive full boxes as a way of self-training oneself on what to look for to confirm a box as original, such as consistency in creasing patterns, uniformity in stacking, the right texture on the roller marks, etc., and I actually did that years ago when I read the book.  Everything he said proved to be true.  I’ve never had the good fortune of examining a full box of Wackys, but an accumulated box from different sources shouldn’t be too hard to detect.

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2020, 05:04:16 PM »
Watch for massive exposure of high profile cards from each grader listed by national auction sites and serious shill bidding to pump up those prices for graded material!

Have you seen what some graded sports cards have been doing since the Coronavirus lockdowns began?  A nuclear explosion of skyrocketing final sale prices.  Relatively contemporary chase cards cracking $100,000. 

So, maybe your speculative scenario has already been in play for much of 2020. 
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2020, 06:20:39 PM »
Have you seen what some graded sports cards have been doing since the Coronavirus lockdowns began?  A nuclear explosion of skyrocketing final sale prices.  Relatively contemporary chase cards cracking $100,000. 

So, maybe your speculative scenario has already been in play for much of 2020.
yes I noticed, the big money hasn't been able to live their lavish life styles due to Covid so they are spending on collectibles.
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Offline Brian Mc

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2020, 04:50:43 AM »
Some of this thread reads like CSI: Wacky Packages. LOL. You guys are on another level.  :D
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Re: Unopened
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2020, 07:59:57 AM »
The full Series 1 box ended at $49,200 with the 20% buyer's premium.   >( >(

Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2020, 12:30:13 PM »
The full Series 1 box ended at $49,200 with the 20% buyer's premium.   >( >(
Smells like a shill bid....the "expert" grader called it a $50k box and it happened to sell for that or did someone push it up to save face on the estimate?  With these types of auctions, no way to tell.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Unopened
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2020, 02:51:44 PM »
Smells like a shill bid....the "expert" grader called it a $50k box and it happened to sell for that or did someone push it up to save face on the estimate?  With these types of auctions, no way to tell.
or our buddy duo will pop on here bragging about his $50k box selling packs for a mere $2k each.  I wonder if he sold his $7k bandache pack.  Actually I don't really wonder.
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