Author Topic: 2nd Series No Copyright  (Read 895 times)

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Offline Paul_Maul

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2nd Series No Copyright
« on: June 08, 2020, 06:12:38 PM »
I can’t seem to retain information much anymore. Is there any solid information about what these are or is it still a mystery?


Offline NationalSpittoon

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2020, 05:51:30 AM »
I thought they were just a poor print job. But, looks like all the ink colors are present. I don't know.


(Edit): I also do not own any like this.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 07:58:40 AM by NationalSpittoon »

Offline Bigmuc13

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2020, 07:56:50 AM »
This is interesting.  It is obviously not miscut.  I may have come across one or two but just assumed it was off center.  I will have to go through all my series 2's to see if I have any.  Cool find though.
Still looking for Series 17


Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 10:25:21 AM »
They have definitely been discussed in the wacky forum at some point in the past. I just can’t remember what the upshot was.

Also, the “bluish guide” appears on many normal die cuts and 1st series stickers, but I guess not normal 2nd series?

Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 10:50:15 AM »
I do recall this was discussed years back
The speculation I favored, and probably why I remember it, is that in these old sets the printers did 5 ink runs, and not just 4.
The standard four to cover the CYMK of the image, and then there was a fifth Inking of black again, but this one applied the copyright text and re-did the border, but sometimes some text or shading in the image as well.

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 11:58:17 AM »
This has come up in the past, no luck finding the topic with a search?  I have seen some faded/light series 2 copyrights so I assume some of these have just rubbed off completely.
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Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 07:37:50 PM »
Dave,
George Wright did a whole thing about these on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. He explained it to a guy who had a 2nd series blue line with no copyright.  You can ask him

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 03:58:31 AM »
Dave,
George Wright did a whole thing about these on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. He explained it to a guy who had a 2nd series blue line with no copyright.  You can ask him

Thanks Joe, I think it is linked above.

Offline Kook

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 04:26:16 AM »
Here are some examples I had a while back:














Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 06:06:31 AM »
Now that I see all these examples the blue line seems a lot lighter in color and more pronounced on these 2nd series no copyrights than the blue line found on many die cuts and 1st series stickers. Though actually the last two of Bill’s above look more like the ones below in terms of blue line.



« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 06:09:12 AM by Paul_Maul »

Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2020, 06:23:47 AM »
Now that I see all these examples the blue line seems a lot lighter in color and more pronounced on these 2nd series no copyrights than the blue line found on many die cuts and 1st series stickers. Though actually the last two of Bill’s above look more like the ones below in terms of blue line.
Those last two do have noticeable print registration alignment issues. I’m thinking that messiness is masking the blue line to some extent.

Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2020, 11:56:16 AM »
I thought they were just a poor print job. But, looks like all the ink colors are present. I don't know.


(Edit): I also do not own any like this.

I pulled 6 of these out of packs back in '73, and thought they were incredibly cool.  Sent off the attached picture, years ago with a write-up to John Mann (not sure if it ever made his site).  These are missing the black plate, which is why the blue lines are so bright.  Somewhere, I have a number of 1st series stickers with partially missing black ink and you can see the same bright blue lines (they also appear on proof sheets missing the final black print). 



This was all addressed, and pointed out by Jay Lynch in the Ratz PSA "What Will This Go For" thread http://www.wackypackagesforum.com/index.php?topic=2236.0 :

Jay is right.  This is missing the black plate overprint.  Back in the 90's, at least one proof sheet panel (44 cards with die cuts) was sold without the black plate overprint.  This card was most likely cut from the proof sheet, or a similar sheet which would explain the condition.  Let's see if the Cracked Animals shows up in similar condition.  In the 60's Topps printed 264 card double sheets.  Each side contained 3 44 card sets.  Each title appeared 6 times on a double sheet and die cuts were not identical from card to card.

With the lack of the black plate, the blue die cut lines are very prominent like on many (if not all) of the 1st series Ludlows.  It would be nearly impossible, and crazy, for somebody to create a fake and complicate it with such an authentic looking blue die cut line when a copy of a normal Ratz would not reveal much, if any blue die cut line.

I have several 2nd series stickers with missing black plate overprints, along with a number of 1st series stickers with partial or lightly inked black plates that have the same brightness and appearance of this Ratz.  Now if it had #4 on back, there would be a problem.





Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2020, 12:01:23 PM »
Ed, why do you think so many die cuts and 1st series stickers seem to have a blue line visible, (though not nearly as prominent)?

Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2020, 01:00:35 PM »
Ed, why do you think so many die cuts and 1st series stickers seem to have a blue line visible, (though not nearly as prominent)?

Dave,

That's a great question.  I don't know the answer, but my longtime working hypothesis is that the black print overlay has a jagged outline of the die-cut masked out of it for the die-cuts and at least part of the first series run. 

If you look at the attached close-up, you can see that the blue line with the black overlay is jagged (almost like connected dots).  My undie-cut die-cut panel has this to some degree and looks die-cut from a distance.  Most Ludlows I have seen, display this pattern.

On the 1st series stickers partially missing the black ink, the blue is a clean line and bright (like on the Schtick pic, above).  The other colors form a black/gray border that becomes black with the black overlay.  I'll try to dig one up over the weekend and post a scan.


Online sco(o)t

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2020, 01:24:03 PM »
I have two Series 2 stickers without copyright. One of them, GLOOM, is just an off centered cut and, when lined up with another GLOOM, would have the copyright just outside the cut. The other one, CHICKEN FAT, is not mis-cut but does show the unusually blue line in the border, as others have mentioned here.

 

aka Scot Leibacher (no trademark)

Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2020, 01:39:43 PM »
Ed, why do you think so many die cuts and 1st series stickers seem to have a blue line visible, (though not nearly as prominent)?
on the later series, the line was masked out on the art before being photographed.
For the 3rd series, you can see the sloppy brush strokes of the 'not quite black' that cover the lines (on the cards, and on much of the art too).
Beyond that, black tape or a true black ink covered the lines.
It seems odd that Topps would go through so much trouble to put the white die line onto the art, just to then mask it out before the printing process

Offline ToadallyDude

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2020, 12:38:38 AM »
How is it that these never came up back in the late 90s/early 00's when we were all totally nerding out about mysteries and variations.  I don't remember ever seeing these no-copyright 2nds.  If they were cut from a proof-sheet, or just 1 sheet accidentally got cut & put in packs... what kind of value do these have now?  Are they treated the same as a rare, but mass-produced variation (a la Scoot no-copy), or are they more fringe, like 16th-beiege or 5th Glossy?

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2nd Series No Copyright
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 04:40:03 AM »
How is it that these never came up back in the late 90s/early 00's when we were all totally nerding out about mysteries and variations.  I don't remember ever seeing these no-copyright 2nds.  If they were cut from a proof-sheet, or just 1 sheet accidentally got cut & put in packs... what kind of value do these have now?  Are they treated the same as a rare, but mass-produced variation (a la Scoot no-copy), or are they more fringe, like 16th-beiege or 5th Glossy?
Same here, topic never came up because none of us had them.  It is possible thousands of series 2 stickers have passed thru my hands and the only one close to being a no copyright was one in which the copyright was faded almost where I felt like I could smear it off.  I wrote it off as a printing imperfection and not a variation and never gave it a thought again.
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