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Offline Swiski

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2017, 04:31:45 PM »
How does this affect Pranky Products going forward? My anger is really beginning to swell!


Jim

Wasn't the Pranky issue with a title from the upcoming Old School? I'm so confused!!

Offline Beanball

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2017, 05:00:30 PM »



This is not only a blow to Neil.  This is not only a blow to fans and collectors.  It's a blow to Wackys overall and everything they have stood for.  You know, you get this kind of shit going on inside the castle and inevitably the entire fortress is going to become insecure and collapse in upon itself.  Somewhere, somebody wasn't thinking too clearly.  As with any great endeavor, one must strew seeds of excitement and creativity in every possible direction, not simply tear stuff up by the roots.


Greed is a very terrible thing.
Shame, shame .
Good thing for karma.

Offline RawGoo

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2017, 05:05:48 PM »



This is not only a blow to Neil.  This is not only a blow to fans and collectors.  It's a blow to Wackys overall and everything they have stood for.  You know, you get this kind of shit going on inside the castle and inevitably the entire fortress is going to become insecure and collapse in upon itself.  Somewhere, somebody wasn't thinking too clearly.  As with any great endeavor, one must strew seeds of excitement and creativity in every possible direction, not simply tear stuff up by the roots.

Rob

Greed has a way of humbling,  maybe.
We can only hope.us


I had been anxiously awaiting Old School 6, planning to buy several sets.  Now, I don't know.

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2017, 05:07:21 PM »
Greed is a very terrible thing.
Shame, shame .
Good thing for karma.
Neil said things are cool with him and topps.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2017, 05:26:39 PM »
Feel I need to step in on this. As far as the Cheez Wheez controversy Neil and I have talked that out behind the scene and are cool. All this is a separate issue and we don't really want to talk about it anymore.

WP are only now dealing with what GPK has been dealing with for a bit: a crackdown on bootleg and fan made infringement material.  There have been a lot more GPK home-made sets and other unauthorized uses of GPK trademarked stuff. Topps stoped Steve Potter's stuff and is right now in a lawsuit with Luis Diaz over his use of GPK. I'm sure Mark Pingitore is going to see some action soon as well. There is no way if they are putting the screws to everyone else that they won't go after him. On the WP side they told me I can't make any cards from those unused paintings and Neil can't make his cards either.

Before everyone goes baja over that, as Neil stated, we are all OK with this because A) we enjoy doing our official WP and GPK work and want to continue to do so and 2) in the end Topps is right and it's their trademarked material. Period. They do not care if we do drawings for people or other one off stuff but if you are going to print up anything with their images or anything they paid you for and didn't use or anything that looks like their product where you are trying to piggyback on it then they are going to say something about. If WP and GPK was on hiatus or even dead for a period I doubt there would be any issue but they are actively putting out material and they don't want other material flooding the market. This is pretty common sense. Why would they compete with their own product yet it's a product they are not making themselves or benefiting from? Another huge point: while Neil was doing his best to make a good and non-threatening product a few other people have been making X-rated stuff, drug related images, etc which is really what's brought this all home. I'm sure Topps doesn't want people Googling WP or GPK and images bearing the GPK or WP name or a look-a-like on first glance showing up to freak out people. I know this was a major issue from being told quite awhile ago. If they stop one person they have to stop every person or the one person can use that in court that they are being singled out. Just ask yourself if Disney would allow others to make Mickey Mouse material or DC to let people produce Superman stuff. Of course not.

You can boycott any product you like but in the end you'd be biting off your nose to spite your face. Neil, me, Brent, Smokin Joe, Joe Simko, Fred, Joe Grossberg, Paul Harris, etc are still going to be making cards and working our butts off (despite some of the weird decisions by Topps) to bring you some kick-ass cards. While I know there has been some negativity towards the Trump stuff and the recent 50th set I think the new set will be a hit but the real place is going to be online. If you don't buy OLDS6 then of course there will not be an OLD7 and then probably no more experimenting where Topps may end up being interested into putting out Neil's cards as a Halloween set. It's a chain reaction. Obviously, I'm not going to tell you to buy it for us. If you like the cards get them. If not, then we deserve it if you don't buy them. I personally think OLDS6 is a big deal because if it does well I can guarantee Topps will be more open to doing just cool regular WPs again. Maybe Neil's sets, maybe postcards, maybe anything as long as they feel there is a market for them. I know this for a fact as I spent the last year talking them into doing this and pointing out how the online market could work better doing these cool fan sets rather than Trump. They are open to it and OLD is the experiment.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 05:32:12 PM by slamjim »

Offline Baked Bears

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2017, 06:33:03 PM »
I understand the point made about trademark infringement.  I do not believe, though, that Topps has the right to monopolize all product parodies.  What makes a Wacky a Wacky?  The name?  The black border around the product illustration?  If I were to paint a product parody, would that be illegal?  Or only if I mass-produced and sold it? 

Also, it's not as if the odd cards are being mass-produced on a grand scale.  They may pop up here and there, but I don't believe they pose a major threat to Topps.  Sure, Topps would like the additional revenue.  But I don't think that if somebody buys the odd card or small set, they're going to consequently shun Topps.  They'll still buy the Topps sets anyway.  (Or perhaps not, if they don't like them.)  If anything, I would think the odd cards would benefit Topps by "carrying the torch" during dormant periods - that is, keep the hobby alive - especially if the cards are created by Topps artists.

I also understand the point about the adult-themed items online and how these might cast a shadow over WP.  To be honest, though, nothing is really going to prevent this.  If I Google "x-rated Disney" something is bound to show up.  (I just did.  And images came up.)

I think all of this could have been handled much differently.  If Topps was aware of Neil Camera's latest set, why didn't they just buy it, post the images, and offer up a "Topps" Halloween set online - say, by tomorrow?  I can't be certain, but I would think that Neil's parodies were up to Topps's standards.

At any rate, I hope that we do see these cards someday - as well as any other cards created by dedicated artists and concept writers.

Addendum:  Or is their another - that is, a second, "Topps" - Halloween set in the works?  (Even if this was true, though, I highly doubt sales of one set would encroach upon the sales of the other.)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:43:49 PM by Baked Bears »

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2017, 06:49:29 PM »
I understand the point made about trademark infringement.  I do not believe, though, that Topps has the right to monopolize all product parodies.  What makes a Wacky a Wacky?  The name?  The black border around the product illustration?  If I were to paint a product parody, would that be illegal?  Or only if I mass-produced and sold it? 

Also, it's not as if the odd cards are being mass-produced on a grand scale.  They may pop up here and there, but I don't believe they pose a major threat to Topps.  Sure, Topps would like the additional revenue.  But I don't think that if somebody buys the odd card or small set, they're going to consequently shun Topps.  They'll still buy the Topps sets anyway.  (Or perhaps not, if they don't like them.)  If anything, I would think the odd cards would benefit Topps by "carrying the torch" during dormant periods - that is, keep the hobby alive - especially if the cards are created by Topps artists.

I also understand the point about the adult-themed items online and how these might cast a shadow over WP.  To be honest, though, nothing is really going to prevent this.  If I Google "x-rated Disney" something is bound to show up.  (I just did.  And images came up.)

I think all of this could have been handled much differently.  If Topps was aware of Neil Camera's latest set, why didn't they just buy it, post the images, and offer up a "Topps" Halloween set online - say, by tomorrow?  I can't be certain, but I would think that Neil's parodies were up to Topps's standards.

At any rate, I hope that we do see these cards someday - as well as any other cards created by dedicated artists and concept writers.

They have the right to stop production on all cards that look exactly like or are made to look as close as possible to their product. That's not monopolizing all product parodies. If we can think of an original way to do them (and I think Smokin Joe has) then they would really have nothing to say. As I said any of us can make our our product parody paintings or drawings or what not. And I can sell that single item. If I choose to mass produce it and sell it then I better not have it looking like someone else's product. That's how it works.

Nope, you are wrong about your second paragraph. It's not so much about the few bucks others would make. If you have a trademark on something you have to protect it. Period. Or you risk losing it.

Yes, possibly during a dormant period but as I said this is not a dormant period. Also, there were posts that said they would not buy OLDS because they had to spread their money towards the Halloween set because it was cheaper and cheaper per card. That kills your point right there. Clearly any competing sets can draw revenue away from their product especially if they are coming out around the same time.

While it's true you can't stop all bootlegging and harmful images they are going to try (as is Disney, etc). The more proactive you are the more it will stop.

As for why they didn't buy Neil's set I have no idea. Maybe the cost would be too much, maybe Neil didn't want to do that under whatever terms they would have been, maybe Topps wasn't prepared for that (the editor is on vacation until November so that's very plausible), maybe they want to start with OLDS then move on from that and didn't want to disrupt their plans. Who knows?

Yes, hopefully they can get made. Whether that's by Topps at some point or Neil putting them out when it a safer time to do so. Maybe in a book form? Trust me, I'd love to make a card set using all kind of my favorite unused concepts. Hopefully some day I can.

BTW, Old School was initially done by me in a dormant period and I was going to put it out myself. I had a whole different name and logo made. Got told they were starting up cards again and rather then competing with them and also risk losing the new work I convinced them to put out Old School themselves which we did under the Toppsvault banner for the first few sets. This is sort of the the online stuff is right now. Experiment with some stuff and hope to figure out some hits. I think they really went about it all wrong from the start with the Trump stuff. If retail is going to be more opened up to themes and entertainment stuff then the online (which is really only hardcore collectors let's be real) should be all about fan friendly sets.

Offline Scheres

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2017, 06:54:25 PM »
I always wondered what gavage meant, so I looked it up. "introduction of material into the stomach by a tube."

Offline Swiski

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2017, 07:18:36 PM »
The irony of this is...we want that trademark Wacky Packages formula of days gone by, but Topps isn't producing it anymore! That 50th anniversary set was a joke and I'm not feeling the magic with the upcoming Movie Posters set either! Nothing against the artists involved, but the parodies aren't good parodies. People like SlamJim and Koduck are trying to bring back the parody quality we all yearn for, and it sounds like Topps is threatening C&D. I'm thankful we are still getting Old School 6, which has the "old school" formula and I will definitely be buying it because I know it will be great material, just like Koduck's Halloween fun packs!

Hopefully Koduck and SlamJim's great unused artwork will be published someday, even under the Topps trademark.

NOTE: I'm using their forum names and not their real names because I never met them before personally, so I feel I don't have the right to use their real names. As a matter a fact, I never met anyone here! I'm just a schmuck from Milwaukee!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 07:25:53 PM by Swiski »

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2017, 07:24:31 PM »
The irony of this is...we want that trademark Wacky Packages formula of days gone by, but Topps isn't producing it anymore! That 50th anniversary set was a joke and I'm not feeling the magic with the upcoming Movie Posters set either! Nothing against the artists involved, but the parodies aren't good parodies. People like SlamJim and Koduck are trying to bring back the parody quality we all yearn for, and it sounds like Topps is threatening C&D. I'm thankful we are still getting Old School 6, which has the "old school" formula and I will definitely be buying it!

It's not a movie posters set. There are movie posters in it but also tons of regular real product parodies so don't fear it too much! They should have featured way more products over posters on the previews but I don't think they had others ready. I'm confident I did 22 kick-ass pieces and I've seen a few from others that were really, really good. Totally agree about the 50th though. No real products was a huge mistake. If you liked the previous cards in OLDS1-5 then no doubt you will like these. Fat borders on them as well.

Offline Baked Bears

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2017, 07:25:46 PM »
Yes, possibly during a dormant period but as I said this is not a dormant period. Also, there were posts that said they would not buy OLDS because they had to spread their money towards the Halloween set because it was cheaper and cheaper per card. That kills your point right there. Clearly any competing sets can draw revenue away from their product especially if they are coming out around the same time.

Yes, hopefully they can get made. Whether that's by Topps at some point or Neil putting them out when it a safer time to do so. Maybe in a book form? Trust me, I'd love to make a card set using all kind of my favorite unused concepts. Hopefully some day I can.

BTW, Old School was initially done by me in a dormant period and I was going to put it out myself. I had a whole different name and logo made. Got told they were starting up cards again and rather then competing with them and also risk losing the new work I convinced them to put out Old School themselves which we did under the Toppsvault banner for the first few sets. This is sort of the the online stuff is right now. Experiment with some stuff and hope to figure out some hits. I think they really went about it all wrong from the start with the Trump stuff. If retail is going to be more opened up to themes and entertainment stuff then the online (which is really only hardcore collectors let's be real) should be all about fan friendly sets.

Thanks for your reply.

I also think the hefty price tag Topps has been placing on their sets doesn't help too much, either, regardless of how many other sets are out there at the same time.  Talk about a deterrent.

Books by the artists who have been around for sometime and accumulated a lot of "unused" material (finished and unfinished) would be a fantastic idea.  As would artists' card sets, as well.

Interesting bit of history about OS.  I agree about the fan friendly sets and the hardcore collectors.  (But then and again, there is still that blasted high price tag.)

Well, so much for October.  No Packs O' Fun, no OS6.  It does suck, but let's hope for stability and the promise of a brighter future.



Offline jleonard1967

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2017, 08:10:36 PM »
The irony of this is...we want that trademark Wacky Packages formula of days gone by, but Topps isn't producing it anymore! That 50th anniversary set was a joke and I'm not feeling the magic with the upcoming Movie Posters set either! Nothing against the artists involved, but the parodies aren't good parodies. People like SlamJim and Koduck are trying to bring back the parody quality we all yearn for, and it sounds like Topps is threatening C&D. I'm thankful we are still getting Old School 6, which has the "old school" formula and I will definitely be buying it because I know it will be great material, just like Koduck's Halloween fun packs!

Hopefully Koduck and SlamJim's great unused artwork will be published someday, even under the Topps trademark.

NOTE: I'm using their forum names and not their real names because I never met them before personally, so I feel I don't have the right to use their real names. As a matter a fact, I never met anyone here! I'm just a schmuck from Milwaukee!
Hey! You have met me  :'(

Offline bigtomi

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2017, 08:32:08 PM »
And f*** the ever-living fabric out of the youtube forum link. Doesn't work.
It certainly does, ya just hafta know how...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gO2G21Ucqk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gO2G21Ucqk</a>

Offline Swiski

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2017, 09:29:37 PM »
Hey! You have met me  :'(

Where? Are you the guy from Kenosha? It's been so long I forgot. Oops!

Offline Brian Mc

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2017, 10:34:42 PM »
They have the right to stop production on all cards that look exactly like or are made to look as close as possible to their product. That's not monopolizing all product parodies.

  How is a competing product NOT going to 'look like theirs'? Wackys are made to look like the product that they are spoofing. A competing parody would likewise look like the product they are spoofing. So, the competing parody would look like a Wacky? No, it would look like the product that it was spoofing.

  These days, there is nothing that sets a Wacky apart.... nothing that 'makes it a Wacky'. Historically, you could argue the thick black border, but, anymore, they are simply parodies (and not always of products!). Colored borders? Sorry, Topps doesn't have a patent on color. Nobody owns red or yellow or silver or etc.

  Not monopolizing all product parodies? It certainly is an attempt to, and I'm pretty sure everybody knows it. It's the same strongarm methods that Microsoft used when they tried to run Netscape out of the browser business. All because they couldn't handle a little competition (actually, Netscape was kicking their ass). Topps wants this same kind of domination.

  In the Microsoft situation, Netscape initially gave them the middle finger because they had their own income and didn't rely on Microsoft for any of it. In this case, Topps literally holds all the cards. Topps is where your bread is buttered, and they know it. It's not like you can walk across the street and make the same money for some other parody card company. Because there is no competition, Topps doesn't have to sue you, or even threaten it. They'll just blackball you: Go ahead, make your little Halloween set... you'll never work for us again! You're stuck, they've got you, and there's nothing you're going to do about it. Oh, you could go to court with them (and even win, like Netscape did), but, you'll drown in all your legal bills. You'll be bankrupt, blackballed, and unemployable, but they'll still be producing WP and GPKs. What will you have gained? Nothing. It's a shitty business practice that's been around since the dawn of time.

  Please don't take any of this as an indicment on the artists. Y'all gotta eat and pay bills. If you have to cancel a Halloween set to keep yourself employed, so be it. And, I don't blame you one bit because I would do the same thing.

  Sure does cast a dark shadow over this weekend for me, though.
 
Brian Mc

Offline bludevilok

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2017, 10:46:41 PM »
This whole situation sounds very similar to CBS's reaction to amateur Star Trek productions.  (Not that Neil is an amateur by any stretch of imagination.)  But the Star Trek productions were overlooked by CBS, the owner of the Star Trek property, because they realized that these productions kept fandom interest alive and didn't interfere with the profitability of their product--UNTIL a couple of producers started selling their productions.  That's when CBS sued them.  The amateur producers who sold their productions got nasty about it, saying they were singled out, etc.  CBS then put out extremely strict guidelines for amateur Star Trek productions, and under no circumstances were they allowed to sell and profit from the Star Trek name.

There are definite differences in this case; for example, Neil did NOT get nasty with Topps.  However, as Slamjim pointed out, it does sound as though Topps is trying to protect its product from other amateurs who are producing products that could diminish the WP and GPK names.  Also, like CBS, it sounds as though Topps is concerned that they're not getting their share of the profits from these non-official Topps cards bearing resemblance to their product.  (Of course, if Topps were paying attention, they'd see that Neil and Slamjim are in no way profiting from their offers.) 

Unfortunately, Topps has the legal upper hand here and can enforce restrictions on their products as they see fit.  However, perhaps--soon, hopefully--Topps will realize that Neil and Slamjim and some others are merely filling a void in Wacky Packages fandom and, like CBS did, could issue their own set of guidelines for non-official Wacky Packages material.  It would keep the Wacky fans happy.

In the meantime, I will sorely miss this year's Halloween Pack-o-fun.  Guess there will be no fun this Halloween.   :'(

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2017, 05:26:47 AM »
  How is a competing product NOT going to 'look like theirs'? Wackys are made to look like the product that they are spoofing. A competing parody would likewise look like the product they are spoofing. So, the competing parody would look like a Wacky? No, it would look like the product that it was spoofing.

  These days, there is nothing that sets a Wacky apart.... nothing that 'makes it a Wacky'. Historically, you could argue the thick black border, but, anymore, they are simply parodies (and not always of products!). Colored borders? Sorry, Topps doesn't have a patent on color. Nobody owns red or yellow or silver or etc.

  Not monopolizing all product parodies? It certainly is an attempt to, and I'm pretty sure everybody knows it. It's the same strongarm methods that Microsoft used when they tried to run Netscape out of the browser business. All because they couldn't handle a little competition (actually, Netscape was kicking their ass). Topps wants this same kind of domination.

  In the Microsoft situation, Netscape initially gave them the middle finger because they had their own income and didn't rely on Microsoft for any of it. In this case, Topps literally holds all the cards. Topps is where your bread is buttered, and they know it. It's not like you can walk across the street and make the same money for some other parody card company. Because there is no competition, Topps doesn't have to sue you, or even threaten it. They'll just blackball you: Go ahead, make your little Halloween set... you'll never work for us again! You're stuck, they've got you, and there's nothing you're going to do about it. Oh, you could go to court with them (and even win, like Netscape did), but, you'll drown in all your legal bills. You'll be bankrupt, blackballed, and unemployable, but they'll still be producing WP and GPKs. What will you have gained? Nothing. It's a shitty business practice that's been around since the dawn of time.

  Please don't take any of this as an indicment on the artists. Y'all gotta eat and pay bills. If you have to cancel a Halloween set to keep yourself employed, so be it. And, I don't blame you one bit because I would do the same thing.

  Sure does cast a dark shadow over this weekend for me, though.
 
You have pretty much nailed all my thoughts.  topps has been bungling along here making the wacky package market smaller and smaller with stupid decision after stupid decision.  Of course they have a legal right to make stupid decisions and of course they are being bullies about it.  The issue here is that wackys have been dormant many times and the door has been opened for other products to take root, those products have taken root and now topps wants to unroot them.  Is it really legal to stop these spin offs that were allowed to get kicked off? 

I stopped collecting new stuff when mustard colored borders and other stupid chase material was introduced.  They were even stupid enough to saturate the market on the last viable chaser(sketches).  When they pretty much ended the possibility of completionism, I was done on top of the fact that some of the product was garbage like the anniversary set. 

I hadn't bought these spin off sets in awhile but I was lured back in and purchased Neil's recent set and also jumped back in with AlienJoy card, shirt and such.  This could have possibly lead to my appetite to buy ANS wackys and OLDS sets going forward.  I doubt I am the only collector who needed a kick in the ass to get back into wackys.  I can say for sure, this cancellation of Neil's halloween set puts an end to my jumping back in.   

Would we really be any worse off if Topps stopped making wackys(since they can't roll out a good affordable product anyway) and then the artists all did their own sets?  Supports the artists, get better products, we get wackys.....win win win.....This latter state is inevitable as topps will continue to bungle the rollout of wackys, sooner than later would have been better!

Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline Brian Mc

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2017, 06:20:21 AM »
This whole situation sounds very similar to CBS's reaction to amateur Star Trek productions.

Huge difference in the Wacky case: none of these artists ever use the name Wacky Packages for their products. Most of those ST productions actually called themselves Star Trek. I've seen bunches of them, and was very surprised those 'amateurs' had so much balls (and so little brains) to actually use the ST name. Using that proprietary title on their own production was plumb dumb. They had nothing to cry about when CBS blew their houses down.

 
Brian Mc

Offline Lavirus

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2017, 06:33:02 AM »
I hardly think Neil's Halloween set was "competing" with Topps. It was Topps who cancelled the (overpriced) Halloween postcards in the first place!

This blows.

Offline RawGoo

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2017, 06:34:57 AM »
You have pretty much nailed all my thoughts.  topps has been bungling along here making the wacky package market smaller and smaller with stupid decision after stupid decision.  Of course they have a legal right to make stupid decisions and of course they are being bullies about it.  The issue here is that wackys have been dormant many times and the door has been opened for other products to take root, those products have taken root and now topps wants to unroot them.  Is it really legal to stop these spin offs that were allowed to get kicked off? 

I stopped collecting new stuff when mustard colored borders and other stupid chase material was introduced.  They were even stupid enough to saturate the market on the last viable chaser(sketches).  When they pretty much ended the possibility of completionism, I was done on top of the fact that some of the product was garbage like the anniversary set. 

I hadn't bought these spin off sets in awhile but I was lured back in and purchased Neil's recent set and also jumped back in with AlienJoy card, shirt and such.  This could have possibly lead to my appetite to buy ANS wackys and OLDS sets going forward.  I doubt I am the only collector who needed a kick in the ass to get back into wackys.  I can say for sure, this cancellation of Neil's halloween set puts an end to my jumping back in.   

Would we really be any worse off if Topps stopped making wackys(since they can't roll out a good affordable product anyway) and then the artists all did their own sets?  Supports the artists, get better products, we get wackys.....win win win.....This latter state is inevitable as topps will continue to bungle the rollout of wackys, sooner than later would have been better!

Silly Supermarket Stickers went through all kinds of trouble legally, and eventually they were allowed to produce for the mass market.  Did that actually hurt Topps' bottom line?  I doubt it.  And that was mass market!!  The Halloween packs were limited production, only for forum members, and with a $5 price point and maximum order of 5 packs, I can't see how any of us spending money on those would have impacted Old School 6 sales, as I am sure that $25 will not be the price point for Old School 6, making it a "one or the other" purchasing choice.

I am disgusted with what happened with all of this, and believe there is a lot of "cutting off your nose to spite your face" involved, with Wacky collectors the losers at the end.  It has really ruined my enthusiasm for Old School 6.  As I have said in the past, I used to buy more new Wackys than I really needed/wanted in order to support the brand, and hopefully encourage future Wacky sets from Topps.  I don't know if I'll be doing that anymore.

And, if Topps goes so far as to kill ParoTees, which is in no way competition with their products, I might just stop buying Topps products altogether.

Note to Topps:  The small fan-based stuff keeps collectors interested, especially during lulls in Topps releases, and can result in more customer interest and enthusiasm for your sets. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 06:38:57 AM by RawGoo »

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2017, 06:42:54 AM »
  How is a competing product NOT going to 'look like theirs'? Wackys are made to look like the product that they are spoofing. A competing parody would likewise look like the product they are spoofing. So, the competing parody would look like a Wacky? No, it would look like the product that it was spoofing.

  These days, there is nothing that sets a Wacky apart.... nothing that 'makes it a Wacky'. Historically, you could argue the thick black border, but, anymore, they are simply parodies (and not always of products!). Colored borders? Sorry, Topps doesn't have a patent on color. Nobody owns red or yellow or silver or etc.

  Not monopolizing all product parodies? It certainly is an attempt to, and I'm pretty sure everybody knows it. It's the same strongarm methods that Microsoft used when they tried to run Netscape out of the browser business. All because they couldn't handle a little competition (actually, Netscape was kicking their ass). Topps wants this same kind of domination.

  In the Microsoft situation, Netscape initially gave them the middle finger because they had their own income and didn't rely on Microsoft for any of it. In this case, Topps literally holds all the cards. Topps is where your bread is buttered, and they know it. It's not like you can walk across the street and make the same money for some other parody card company. Because there is no competition, Topps doesn't have to sue you, or even threaten it. They'll just blackball you: Go ahead, make your little Halloween set... you'll never work for us again! You're stuck, they've got you, and there's nothing you're going to do about it. Oh, you could go to court with them (and even win, like Netscape did), but, you'll drown in all your legal bills. You'll be bankrupt, blackballed, and unemployable, but they'll still be producing WP and GPKs. What will you have gained? Nothing. It's a shitty business practice that's been around since the dawn of time.

  Please don't take any of this as an indicment on the artists. Y'all gotta eat and pay bills. If you have to cancel a Halloween set to keep yourself employed, so be it. And, I don't blame you one bit because I would do the same thing.

  Sure does cast a dark shadow over this weekend for me, though.
 

You can make a competing product that still spoofs products that does not look like a Wacky. Smokin Joe already did it and it's brilliant. Has nothing to do with WPs in a specific way and is it's own thing and still spoofs a product along with spoofing a monster just as equally AND would appeal to the same type of collector.


Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2017, 07:04:51 AM »
Not really sure what to say to everyone. You are thinking with your hearts rather than heads on this which is understandable but in the end I disagree with you. If I came up with a successful product I would not want others aping that same product, using many, if not all, of the original ideas created to make that successful, have my current employees (and bitter ex employees) working on competing sets and selling directly to the same base as if they were the same product or an extension of that product. I give up. You are peeved but you are screwing Neil over more by boycotting WPs over his home-made stuff because that's his job. Making home-made sets,if Topps has to stop making WPs, is not going to pay his bills. They are side, small projects. None of this stuff should be being made until WP and GPK are on a break and even then they would have to be done as something that doesn't violate the creator's rights.

Offline Zenergizer

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Re: Comments
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2017, 11:10:36 AM »
well said, Dave.  No one should boycott Topps or Wackys because of this issue,
enjoy what we got! 

The Movie set looks very promising, even though I'm not a big movie-watcher myself
and hardly know of what new films are coming out, except for ones I tried to parody!

And is it "Wackys" or "Wackies," I've always been on the fence about that.  I've been
told "Wackys" but it still doesn't seem right  :P

Offline Baked Bears

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Re: Comments
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2017, 11:44:06 AM »
"Wackys" isn't grammatically correct.  But then again, neither is "Fantastik" or other products with misspelled names.  So in a sense, Wackys kind of fits.

Offline NationalSpittoon

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2017, 12:11:13 PM »
Not really sure what to say to everyone. You are thinking with your hearts rather than heads on this which is understandable but in the end I disagree with you. If I came up with a successful product I would not want others aping that same product, using many, if not all, of the original ideas created to make that successful, have my current employees (and bitter ex employees) working on competing sets and selling directly to the same base as if they were the same product or an extension of that product. I give up. You are peeved but you are screwing Neil over more by boycotting WPs over his home-made stuff because that's his job. Making home-made sets,if Topps has to stop making WPs, is not going to pay his bills. They are side, small projects. None of this stuff should be being made until WP and GPK are on a break and even then they would have to be done as something that doesn't violate the creator's rights.

Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't going to sway them. So, I really can't see the justification behind your disagreeing. I would be amazed if I had come up with a product groundbreaking enough for other people to make great versions of the same as well. How come Samsung phones just like Apple haven't been s***canned because of Apple not getting their royalties? Or how about pencils? There are about five billion companies working out of sweatshops for pencil brands and you don't see the original inventor of the pencil calling copyright issues! The fact that anyone would say that Neil's or anyone else's parody card brands shouldn't be allowed because they are "Copying Wacky Packages" dumbfounds me to this day. If you want people to enjoy your sets instead of other sets, why don't you make them better??

Rant over.
Mark

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2017, 12:46:29 PM »
You can make a competing product that still spoofs products that does not look like a Wacky. Smokin Joe already did it and it's brilliant. Has nothing to do with WPs in a specific way and is it's own thing and still spoofs a product along with spoofing a monster just as equally AND would appeal to the same type of collector.
sure it CAN be done but stating it is required to be done to the detriment of killing popular spin offs that keep the fire burning in between Topps delays or topps bungled concepts is just flat out stupid.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2017, 12:50:19 PM »
Not really sure what to say to everyone. You are thinking with your hearts rather than heads on this which is understandable but in the end I disagree with you. If I came up with a successful product I would not want others aping that same product, using many, if not all, of the original ideas created to make that successful, have my current employees (and bitter ex employees) working on competing sets and selling directly to the same base as if they were the same product or an extension of that product. I give up. You are peeved but you are screwing Neil over more by boycotting WPs over his home-made stuff because that's his job. Making home-made sets,if Topps has to stop making WPs, is not going to pay his bills. They are side, small projects. None of this stuff should be being made until WP and GPK are on a break and even then they would have to be done as something that doesn't violate the creator's rights.
Lost wacky sales are alive and well....hypocrisy rules, topps is run by tools.  Maybe lost wackys were suddenly dumped en mass due to a tip off that crack downs were coming, get your money while you can?
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2017, 12:53:48 PM »
sure it CAN be done but stating it is required to be done to the detriment of killing popular spin offs that keep the fire burning in between Topps delays or topps bungled concepts is just flat out stupid.

It's not a spin off if you don't own it. It's a copy and it's illegal. What part of that do you not understand? If I work at Marvel on Spider-Man and either while I'm working there or after I leave I start putting out my own comic book called Man-Spider with a character named Peter Parkerberg wearing a red and blue suit with a web design and an upside down spider at the center who fights Dr. Squid and the Orange Goblin (not Trump BTW) do you think that is it's own product or a copy of Spiderman with just a few things altered to try to get away with it?

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2017, 12:54:14 PM »
Lost wacky sales are alive and well....hypocrisy rules, topps is run by tools.  Maybe lost wackys were suddenly dumped en mass due to a tip off that crack downs were coming, get your money while you can?

Did you contact Topps about the Lost Wackys yet?

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2017, 12:57:52 PM »
Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't going to sway them. So, I really can't see the justification behind your disagreeing. I would be amazed if I had come up with a product groundbreaking enough for other people to make great versions of the same as well. How come Samsung phones just like Apple haven't been s***canned because of Apple not getting their royalties? Or how about pencils? There are about five billion companies working out of sweatshops for pencil brands and you don't see the original inventor of the pencil calling copyright issues! The fact that anyone would say that Neil's or anyone else's parody card brands shouldn't be allowed because they are "Copying Wacky Packages" dumbfounds me to this day. If you want people to enjoy your sets instead of other sets, why don't you make them better??

Rant over.

You might want to bone up on what copyright even is. Copyright covers the manner of expression of ideas, not the design of useful objects (which would be a matter for patents).

Offline bandaches

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2017, 01:01:10 PM »
Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't going to sway them. So, I really can't see the justification behind your disagreeing. I would be amazed if I had come up with a product groundbreaking enough for other people to make great versions of the same as well. How come Samsung phones just like Apple haven't been s***canned because of Apple not getting their royalties? Or how about pencils? There are about five billion companies working out of sweatshops for pencil brands and you don't see the original inventor of the pencil calling copyright issues! The fact that anyone would say that Neil's or anyone else's parody card brands shouldn't be allowed because they are "Copying Wacky Packages" dumbfounds me to this day. If you want people to enjoy your sets instead of other sets, why don't you make them better??

Rant over.
next time I disagree with you on anything, smack me in the head because you are probably in the right!  you nailed it here!  Just chalk this up to lack of vision for topps.  they really are stupid enough not to see that these spin off sets keep the fire burning and result in more sales for them.  Watch and see, they first thought they would just take sets like Neil's and make them topps delivered so they get their cut and keep control....then they will see it costs too much because something like Neil's set is straddled with topps overhead so the concept of keeping these spin off sets going will die.....then finally topps will stop making wackys....then the artists will start their spin offs again assuming too much time didn't pass to kill everything off.    topps has to have their heads in the sand if they don't see wackys are dying a slow death.  I wonder how Topps is doing financially overall.  Aren't they privately held now as being public, the share prices would probably plummet due to failing sales across the board.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Online slamjim

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2017, 01:38:52 PM »
next time I disagree with you on anything, smack me in the head because you are probably in the right!  you nailed it here!  Just chalk this up to lack of vision for topps.  they really are stupid enough not to see that these spin off sets keep the fire burning and result in more sales for them.  Watch and see, they first thought they would just take sets like Neil's and make them topps delivered so they get their cut and keep control....then they will see it costs too much because something like Neil's set is straddled with topps overhead so the concept of keeping these spin off sets going will die.....then finally topps will stop making wackys....then the artists will start their spin offs again assuming too much time didn't pass to kill everything off.    topps has to have their heads in the sand if they don't see wackys are dying a slow death.  I wonder how Topps is doing financially overall.  Aren't they privately held now as being public, the share prices would probably plummet due to failing sales across the board.

Wait, what? Except all those examples are factually wrong. Patent issues/ copyright issues. Apples/ Oranges.

And I did point out that perhaps Topps will be interested in Neil's sets at some point. They just need to make sure the format works for them and us. That's where the online stuff is playing out. I'd say just be patient and see how that unfolds. I'm interested in seeing Neil's set as a real WP set same as you and will gladly push Topps on that issue when vacation time ends. And I'm in 100% agreement with you on one major thing. When Topps let us (me and Neil) do our own things in the past (Old School and the Postcard series) they turned out to be the most fan friendly sets Topps puts out. Why? because we know what you want to a tee and we are also fans ourselves. I've been doing WP art now for over 12 years. I know what I'm doing. I know what the fans want. Our suggestions are not poison. Hope Topps will open up with us making suggestions.

Offline DrDeal

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Re: Comments
« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2017, 01:46:14 PM »
No boycott plans here. Tough situation ; but let's support OS6 ; have some laughs and hope for the best.

Andrew

Online slamjim

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Re: Comments
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2017, 01:50:38 PM »
Ignoring the fact that I have a vested interest in Old School (as all the other artists should have as well because a good selling OLDS makes other projects a go) if people have not like some of the recent offerings by Topps and if Old School is exactly the type of gags and art you want why would you boycott that? Then they are not going to do fan friendly sets anymore and they are going to push even more towards the modern kid friendly stuff they are now doing. If you are boycotting you boycott the actual products you don't like.

Offline lucidjc

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Re: 2017 Halloween Pack O Fun
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2017, 02:12:49 PM »
"Orange Goblin (not Trump BTW)"

Shit like this isn't making you any friends either. Don't forget, there are 2 sides and a middle, and you're stepping on two of them.


Jim