Author Topic: WP Forum PSA Thread  (Read 26014 times)

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Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #280 on: January 11, 2021, 04:21:44 AM »
Wasn't this one from that lot, Dave?

Still have no clue why this is a PSA 7.


Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #281 on: January 11, 2021, 06:48:11 AM »
Based on the cert number it was definitely from the same submission. And if I submitted it, I definitely did not think it was a 7 either!!

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #282 on: January 11, 2021, 07:18:45 AM »
Based on the cert number it was definitely from the same submission. And if I submitted it, I definitely did not think it was a 7 either!!
Left right centering didn't kill it?
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #283 on: January 11, 2021, 07:26:04 AM »
If you measure it, it is actually better than 60/40, which is acceptable for a 9. I agree it may not have 9 eye appeal due to the slight diamond cut, but certainly plenty acceptable for an 8.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:31:06 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #284 on: January 11, 2021, 08:21:22 AM »
If you measure it, it is actually better than 60/40, which is acceptable for a 9. I agree it may not have 9 eye appeal due to the slight diamond cut, but certainly plenty acceptable for an 8.
Now that I understand PSA grades on centering eye appeal and not true card centering, this doesn't look close to 60/40 visually, I am shocked that it actually measures to 60/40 but my money is on left right centering yielded the PSA 7.
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Offline drono

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #285 on: January 11, 2021, 09:59:22 AM »
Is that a little printing flaw in the top border between the C and the R in Cram and another one in the top left edge when the sticker is oriented correctly?  Or are they from something that was on the scanner?

I think PSA grading is like judging figure skating or gymnastics at the Olympics.  Just come up with a measurable criteria and apply it to every one.  Measurement is truth; otherwise it's just a guess.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 10:04:44 AM by drono »

Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #286 on: January 11, 2021, 10:20:10 AM »
Is that a little printing flaw in the top border between the C and the R in Cram and another one in the top left edge when the sticker is oriented correctly?  Or are they from something that was on the scanner?

I think PSA grading is like judging figure skating or gymnastics at the Olympics.  Just come up with a measurable criteria and apply it to every one.  Measurement is truth; otherwise it's just a guess.

That does seem like a printing flaw as I just examined the card again. I honestly don't know if it's diamond cut, and if it is, it is extremely subtle. I still think the centering is good enough for this to be an 8, and visually I like this one. I honestly doubt that PSA wouldn't give it a higher grade because of the "diamond cut" anyway, because I have seen much worse diamond cuts before graded 7's or higher.

We really do need someone knowledgeable on these to grade... and also be impartial.

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #287 on: January 11, 2021, 02:53:45 PM »
That does seem like a printing flaw as I just examined the card again. I honestly don't know if it's diamond cut, and if it is, it is extremely subtle. I still think the centering is good enough for this to be an 8, and visually I like this one. I honestly doubt that PSA wouldn't give it a higher grade because of the "diamond cut" anyway, because I have seen much worse diamond cuts before graded 7's or higher.

We really do need someone knowledgeable on these to grade... and also be impartial.
PSA is not considered to be impartial?
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Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #288 on: January 12, 2021, 10:00:14 AM »
PSA is not considered to be impartial?

You must know something that I don't!

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #289 on: January 12, 2021, 10:57:26 AM »
You must know something that I don't!

"We really do need someone knowledgeable on these to grade... and also be impartial."

Usually people don't express a need for something that already exists so I took your comment as your suggesting PSA wasn't impartial.
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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #290 on: January 12, 2021, 11:00:53 AM »
"We really do need someone knowledgeable on these to grade... and also be impartial."

Usually people don't express a need for something that already exists so I took your comment as your suggesting PSA wasn't impartial.

I meant, PSA generally isn't very knowledgeable about these. So, we'd need someone who is. But, since this hobby is a tight niche, the grader might try to do their friend a favor and give a better grade giving Wackys unjust grading in perpetuity.

Maybe that's jaded, but I am just throwing it out there.

Offline drono

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #291 on: January 12, 2021, 11:37:30 AM »
Since this hobby is a tight niche, the grader might try to do their friend a favor and give a better grade

That's already been expressed as an ongoing problem.  The difference between a 9 and a 10 for certain high demand items (sports cards mostly) can be a substantial amount of money, so the temptation of doing a favor for a friend or some cash under the table is a very real concern.  Without a published criteria for what defines what grade, and transparency on individual items' grades, it will always be seen as subjective.  Unfortunately they will never publish this because it's considered proprietary, just like credit scores. 

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #292 on: January 12, 2021, 12:35:39 PM »
That's already been expressed as an ongoing problem.  The difference between a 9 and a 10 for certain high demand items (sports cards mostly) can be a substantial amount of money, so the temptation of doing a favor for a friend or some cash under the table is a very real concern.  Without a published criteria for what defines what grade, and transparency on individual items' grades, it will always be seen as subjective.  Unfortunately they will never publish this because it's considered proprietary, just like credit scores.
agreed, this is not a wacky packages issue, this is an issue with grading in general.  The fact that the same card can be PSA 9 O?C or PSA7 depending on whether you accept a qualifier is nutty!  There should be no such thing as qualifiers and half grades all cards graded with same criteria and should not be based on eye appeal, centering is centering regardless of the "width" of the borders but PSA's primary goal is not accuracy, it is to make MONEY!!!  Accuracy is a flex term that will flex in the direction of money, half grades means money, half grades it is.  Qualifiers means money, qualifiers it is.
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Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #293 on: January 13, 2021, 03:57:00 AM »
agreed, this is not a wacky packages issue, this is an issue with grading in general.  The fact that the same card can be PSA 9 O?C or PSA7 depending on whether you accept a qualifier is nutty!  There should be no such thing as qualifiers and half grades all cards graded with same criteria and should not be based on eye appeal, centering is centering regardless of the "width" of the borders but PSA's primary goal is not accuracy, it is to make MONEY!!!  Accuracy is a flex term that will flex in the direction of money, half grades means money, half grades it is.  Qualifiers means money, qualifiers it is.

A PSA 9 (OC) is a PSA 7. It means that the card is a 9 sans the centering. I don't like qualifiers either personally, but that's the reasoning they'll give.

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #294 on: January 13, 2021, 04:54:16 AM »
I would take a PSA 7 over a PSA 9(OC). I know they grade out the same on the registry, however the 7 is so much more of a cleaner grade.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #295 on: January 13, 2021, 05:06:50 AM »
As more and more wackys are submitted to PSA, itís becoming clear that this is the toughest 1st series title in high grade....


Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #296 on: January 13, 2021, 05:15:25 AM »
As more and more wackys are submitted to PSA, itís becoming clear that this is the toughest 1st series title in high grade....

(Image removed from quote.)

Yes. I have yet to see a perfectly centered Kook Aid. Even your's is slightly OC vertically but much better than average. It's fun because I hope to get not only a centered 1st series version, but also a diecuts version! And, they have their own plethora of issues.

Online RawGoo

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #297 on: January 13, 2021, 05:37:42 AM »
As more and more wackys are submitted to PSA, itís becoming clear that this is the toughest 1st series title in high grade....

(Image removed from quote.)

That is really beautiful!  I assume you submitted that one yourself?

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #298 on: January 13, 2021, 06:00:09 AM »
Yes. I have yet to see a perfectly centered Kook Aid. Even your's is slightly OC vertically but much better than average. It's fun because I hope to get not only a centered 1st series version, but also a diecuts version! And, they have their own plethora of issues.

Yes. I think itís pretty typical that really low pop examples are marginal. Same for my Floral.

I think what makes this title tough is the copyright is so far below the image, even when it is properly centered the visual impression is that it is OC.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 06:16:10 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #299 on: January 13, 2021, 06:00:39 AM »
That is really beautiful!  I assume you submitted that one yourself?

Yeah, hard to believe my first submissions were almost 8 years ago...

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #300 on: January 13, 2021, 06:11:28 AM »
Another thing I noticed last night that I never picked up on before is that all 1st Series Hostages tend to appear tilted or diamond cut. Many of them actually are, but even if the card is cut perfectly, it still looks off because the black border surrounding the image is not really rectangular. The bottom edge of it slopes down slightly from right to left, and the copyright is parallel to that edge, which is not quite parallel to the bottom edge of the card.


Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #301 on: January 13, 2021, 06:27:57 AM »
Yes. I think itís pretty typical that really low pop examples are marginal. Same for my Floral.

I think what makes this title tough is the copyright is so far below the image, even when it is properly centered the visual impression is that it is OC.
PSA only goes for visual centering, they have no idea where the copyright "should be" on perfectly centered card.  they would need an uncut sheet to make this determination.  This one you have graded her looks awesome but is it the angle of the scan that makes it look like a T cut ie the top edge is wider than the bottom edge?
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #302 on: January 13, 2021, 06:40:06 AM »
PSA only goes for visual centering, they have no idea where the copyright "should be" on perfectly centered card.  they would need an uncut sheet to make this determination.  This one you have graded her looks awesome but is it the angle of the scan that makes it look like a T cut ie the top edge is wider than the bottom edge?

It does have a slight flare cut on the top right, which is common for titles on the edge of the sheet. I opened multiple 1st reissue boxes and all my Mrs. Kleans and Viles had it!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 06:44:17 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #303 on: January 13, 2021, 08:13:12 AM »
It does have a slight flare cut on the top right, which is common for titles on the edge of the sheet. I opened multiple 1st reissue boxes and all my Mrs. Kleans and Viles had it!
How can such a flare qualify for PSA9?  Now I really have no idea what criteria PSA is using, not eye appeal, not real centering either.  I thought any flaw visible with naked eye dropped it to PSA8 and only magnifying glass and such distinguished 9's and 10's.
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #304 on: January 13, 2021, 08:53:21 AM »
How can such a flare qualify for PSA9?  Now I really have no idea what criteria PSA is using, not eye appeal, not real centering either.  I thought any flaw visible with naked eye dropped it to PSA8 and only magnifying glass and such distinguished 9's and 10's.

Iím not sure where you got these ideas. 🙂 PSA grading is largely based on centering and corner/surface wear. Most aspects of grading (with the exception of centering) are not quantifiable, and as a result, are interpreted differently by different graders.

I submitted a Soggy Babies (another edge of sheet title) that had a noticeable flare cut. The first time it came back N8 Miscut. Upon resubmission, it graded a PSA 10.

As someone generally looking to criticize PSA, you will surely see this as a sign of incompetence. But the fact is, anything that is not quantifiable is subjective. A flare cut can vary on a continuum from barely noticeable to awful. Yes, so can corner wear. All of these non-quantifiable factors are ultimately subjective, and there is really no way around that.

So while anal collectors would love it if there were a completely deterministic grading process that would yield identical results when repeated, that is unfortunately not possible. Thatís why graders with experience who can be reasonably consistent are the best we can hope for, and the buyer bears some responsibility in making sure he is happy with the card no matter how it is graded.

Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #305 on: January 13, 2021, 09:07:51 AM »
Iím not sure where you got these ideas. 🙂 PSA grading is largely based on centering and corner/surface wear. Most aspects of grading (with the exception of centering) are not quantifiable, and as a result, are interpreted differently by different graders.

I submitted a Soggy Babies (another edge of sheet title) that had a noticeable flare cut. The first time it came back N8 Miscut. Upon resubmission, it graded a PSA 10.

As someone generally looking to criticize PSA, you will surely see this as a sign of incompetence. But the fact is, anything that is not quantifiable is subjective. A flare cut can vary on a continuum from barely noticeable to awful. Yes, so can corner wear. All of these non-quantifiable factors are ultimately subjective, and there is really no way around that.

So while anal collectors would love it if there were a completely deterministic grading process that would yield identical results when repeated, that is unfortunately not possible. Thatís why graders with experience who can be reasonably consistent are the best we can hope for, and the buyer bears some responsibility in making sure he is happy with the card no matter how it is graded.

Yeah, I personally don't think the Soggy Babies is a 10 but who knows. I never knew that cutting issue was considered a "flare cut". I know that is the death blow to probably every Jerkyfruits I've seen.

Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #306 on: January 13, 2021, 11:06:05 AM »
Iím not sure where you got these ideas. 🙂 PSA grading is largely based on centering and corner/surface wear. Most aspects of grading (with the exception of centering) are not quantifiable, and as a result, are interpreted differently by different graders.

I submitted a Soggy Babies (another edge of sheet title) that had a noticeable flare cut. The first time it came back N8 Miscut. Upon resubmission, it graded a PSA 10.

As someone generally looking to criticize PSA, you will surely see this as a sign of incompetence. But the fact is, anything that is not quantifiable is subjective. A flare cut can vary on a continuum from barely noticeable to awful. Yes, so can corner wear. All of these non-quantifiable factors are ultimately subjective, and there is really no way around that.

So while anal collectors would love it if there were a completely deterministic grading process that would yield identical results when repeated, that is unfortunately not possible. Thatís why graders with experience who can be reasonably consistent are the best we can hope for, and the buyer bears some responsibility in making sure he is happy with the card no matter how it is graded.
It IS QUANTIFIABLE!  That is the problem here. with all the measuring devises out there, either it is flare cut or it is not.  From there, % of flare cut determines impact on grade.  It is outrageous that items can be resubmitted and get new grades.  I really am at a loss as to why you feel PSA has a better eye than you do and that you are willing to pay them money for this.  You have a super accurate critical eye, slab them yourself.  PSA's word and measurement of this is a completely arbitrary number at this point.
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Offline ToadallyDude

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #307 on: January 19, 2021, 02:03:37 PM »
Very cool.  Thanks for sharing.  $35 a set is awsome for PSA-9 quality glossies.  I'd pay that.  5th-7th (or 3-8) are arguably the most common series out there, but not necessarily in pristine condition.  Some of the most notoriously faded, dull looking titles seem to come from 3-8.

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #308 on: January 26, 2021, 03:47:19 AM »




Uploading these on my phone, so sorry if the images are smaller. Got the Secrets yesterday and it brought my 5th set up two ranks!

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #309 on: January 26, 2021, 05:55:07 AM »
Great! Your enthusiasm for the 5th series is reminding me that I like it. Right in the heart of my wacky buying!

Offline jleonard1967

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #310 on: January 26, 2021, 08:19:14 AM »
Hungry jerk is a harder one to get in high grade.  It took me a while to find that one. You have a nice collection going, keep up the good luck.  Be sure to show your friends your collection, maybe some of them will get interested in collecting.  A lot of my finds were from friends finding other things. 

Online NationalSpittoon

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #311 on: January 28, 2021, 03:50:15 AM »
A couple of my friends collect Pokťmon cards. I showed them the Wackys, they thought they were cool but no real interest I donít think.

I still want to find a nicer Hungry Jerk, but that one is the closest to perfect as Iíve seen.

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #312 on: February 01, 2021, 03:38:03 PM »



Offline bandaches

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #313 on: February 01, 2021, 07:53:50 PM »

Colors are super vibrant on this, nice card!
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #314 on: February 02, 2021, 08:39:20 AM »


Super nice. Much like mine, I am not sure why it didnít get a 9. Your L/R centering looks adequate. Iím not sure the graders get how it is supposed to be centered with respect to the copyright....