Author Topic: WP Forum PSA Thread  (Read 18341 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #210 on: November 18, 2020, 03:28:24 PM »
Does anyone know who owns the PSA10 of Hurts 2nd series tan back? Looking to trade for my 10 3rd series Dr.Ono.
Eric already has PSA 10 Dr Ono and Hurts tan.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2020, 02:48:41 AM »
Why would Hurts be tougher than Dr Ono when Dr Ono is a pulled title?  I have 23 Tan Hurts and 13 Dr Onos.

In high grade, I see Hurts being tougher on centering (especially being a tan back) than Dr. Ono. I donít even see how Dr. Ono being a pulled title makes it that much more expensive, itís worth a couple dollars more. It is no Choke Wagon.

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2740
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #212 on: November 19, 2020, 05:38:31 AM »
Hurts is tougher because of the very thin borders. And as usual, no one is saying it is tougher to find, just tougher to get a high PSA grade.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #213 on: November 19, 2020, 05:42:22 PM »
Hurts is tougher because of the very thin borders. And as usual, no one is saying it is tougher to find, just tougher to get a high PSA grade.
As usual?  I do laugh at the concept of thinner borders being tougher on centering....a title is either centered or it is not regardless of the borders.  One could argue the lack of centering is less obvious with wider borders but it doesn't change the facts around the centering and competent grading would find off centering whether obvious or not.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #214 on: November 19, 2020, 05:48:09 PM »
In high grade, I see Hurts being tougher on centering (especially being a tan back) than Dr. Ono. I donít even see how Dr. Ono being a pulled title makes it that much more expensive, itís worth a couple dollars more. It is no Choke Wagon.
I don't recall anyone saying "that much more expensive" but nonetheless, as you said, it is worth a few bucks more.  My collection accumulating was someone non discriminative and the ratios I have seem to exactly match the perceive rarities and title counts from sheets.  I have 23 tan Hurts and 13 Dr Onos so at least I am basing my statement on some empirical evidence. 
Other than the "first card in set" suffering from rubber band bends theory I believe all cards have equal chances for wear and tear and I maintain there is no basis to think with proper competent grading, Hurts tans are less likely to be found in PSA10.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2740
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #215 on: November 19, 2020, 08:48:23 PM »
I don't recall anyone saying "that much more expensive" but nonetheless, as you said, it is worth a few bucks more.  My collection accumulating was someone non discriminative and the ratios I have seem to exactly match the perceive rarities and title counts from sheets.  I have 23 tan Hurts and 13 Dr Onos so at least I am basing my statement on some empirical evidence. 
Other than the "first card in set" suffering from rubber band bends theory I believe all cards have equal chances for wear and tear and I maintain there is no basis to think with proper competent grading, Hurts tans are less likely to be found in PSA10.

If there is less border space, there is more sensitivity. 50/50 will become 75/25 with less movement of the sheet if there is less border space to start with.

But if you want empirical evidence, there have been 55 Hurts tans submitted, with 5 PSA 9s and 1 PSA 10.

There have been 100 Onos submitted with 13 PSA 9s and 4 PSA 10s. That is fairly compelling evidence that for whatever reason, Hurts tan is the tougher high grade card.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #216 on: November 19, 2020, 09:17:46 PM »
If there is less border space, there is more sensitivity. 50/50 will become 75/25 with less movement of the sheet if there is less border space to start with.

But if you want empirical evidence, there have been 55 Hurts tans submitted, with 5 PSA 9s and 1 PSA 10.

There have been 100 Onos submitted with 13 PSA 9s and 4 PSA 10s. That is fairly compelling evidence that for whatever reason, Hurts tan is the tougher high grade card.
You have highlighted again the ridiculousness of the grading process.  75/25 is 75/25 regardless of borders. If a card is off center, it is off center.  The copyright positioning should dictate the centering not the width of borders.  In terms of empirical evidence, that merely highlights more people have submitted Dr Ono which is perceived to be the more valuable card in hopes to get a good grade.    80 Ajerx whites were submitted with 1 PSA 10s, so now Ajerx wider border is suddenly harder to find in PSA 10 than Hurts narrow borders?   It is a fact that there are fewer Dr Onos in the wild per it being pulled yet it is one of the most submitted series 3 cards....proves my point, people are chasing high grade on a perceived rare card.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #217 on: November 20, 2020, 02:20:13 AM »
I don't recall anyone saying "that much more expensive" but nonetheless, as you said, it is worth a few bucks more.  My collection accumulating was someone non discriminative and the ratios I have seem to exactly match the perceive rarities and title counts from sheets.  I have 23 tan Hurts and 13 Dr Onos so at least I am basing my statement on some empirical evidence. 
Other than the "first card in set" suffering from rubber band bends theory I believe all cards have equal chances for wear and tear and I maintain there is no basis to think with proper competent grading, Hurts tans are less likely to be found in PSA10.

Not all cards have equal chance for centering issues, however. 8-lives? Clammy? Muleburro? Choke Wagon? Now, lets compare those to Heave Cigarettes, for one. Clearly, that title is one of the easiest in the original series and the others I mentioned are some of the most difficult. They are not equally distributed in high grade.

I donít understand your point. I said Hurts was tougher in high grade than Dr. Ono and ratios per grade can prove that. Thereís ~1:2 Hurts Tan PSA 10ís/Dr. Ono PSA 10ís. Allowing room for error, that one Hurts may not even be deserving of that ten. But, with four Dr. Onos, I would like to believe confidence would allow one definite ten. Even with more submitted Dr. Onos, I still donít think it changes the fact that Hurts as a tan back is tougher.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #218 on: November 20, 2020, 04:41:32 AM »
Not all cards have equal chance for centering issues, however. 8-lives? Clammy? Muleburro? Choke Wagon? Now, lets compare those to Heave Cigarettes, for one. Clearly, that title is one of the easiest in the original series and the others I mentioned are some of the most difficult. They are not equally distributed in high grade.

I donít understand your point. I said Hurts was tougher in high grade than Dr. Ono and ratios per grade can prove that. Thereís ~1:2 Hurts Tan PSA 10ís/Dr. Ono PSA 10ís. Allowing room for error, that one Hurts may not even be deserving of that ten. But, with four Dr. Onos, I would like to believe confidence would allow one definite ten. Even with more submitted Dr. Onos, I still donít think it changes the fact that Hurts as a tan back is tougher.
You have no data that says the reason the 54 other Hurts didn't get PSA 10 was due to centering.  Dave's empirical evidence actually proves nothing.  62% of Dr Ono's submitted are PSA8 and higher, 50% of Hurts tan are PSA8 or higher.  Given the sample size is 100 or less for each and you have no data that indicates the REASON for the grade, you have no evidence the centering is a factor.  Again, I get it, from an eye appeal point of view, thin border off center is more obvious but stop claiming that defines centering because it shouldn't.  If a Dr Ono is off center by 10% so its copyright is shifted to the right by 10%, then it is 10% plain and simple.  If a Hurts if off center by 10% and its expected copyright placement is off center by 10% but that wipes out half the thin border, it is off center by 10%!!!  If you guys are claiming the hurts will be graded as something worse than 10% due to the % of border shift then you proved my point, grading is a crock. 
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #219 on: November 20, 2020, 06:45:23 AM »
You have no data that says the reason the 54 other Hurts didn't get PSA 10 was due to centering.  Dave's empirical evidence actually proves nothing.  62% of Dr Ono's submitted are PSA8 and higher, 50% of Hurts tan are PSA8 or higher.  Given the sample size is 100 or less for each and you have no data that indicates the REASON for the grade, you have no evidence the centering is a factor.  Again, I get it, from an eye appeal point of view, thin border off center is more obvious but stop claiming that defines centering because it shouldn't.  If a Dr Ono is off center by 10% so its copyright is shifted to the right by 10%, then it is 10% plain and simple.  If a Hurts if off center by 10% and its expected copyright placement is off center by 10% but that wipes out half the thin border, it is off center by 10%!!!  If you guys are claiming the hurts will be graded as something worse than 10% due to the % of border shift then you proved my point, grading is a crock.

I never said centering was the grade itself, I said that Hurts was more difficult in high grade, bar none. You gave the empirical evidence.

"62% of Dr Ono's submitted are PSA8 and higher, 50% of Hurts tan are PSA8 or higher"

This is proving that Dr. Ono's are more likely in high grade and I would like to believe that 12% is beyond the margin of error.

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #220 on: November 20, 2020, 09:00:45 AM »
Two recent pickups...


Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #221 on: November 20, 2020, 09:55:04 AM »
I never said centering was the grade itself, I said that Hurts was more difficult in high grade, bar none. You gave the empirical evidence.

"62% of Dr Ono's submitted are PSA8 and higher, 50% of Hurts tan are PSA8 or higher"

This is proving that Dr. Ono's are more likely in high grade and I would like to believe that 12% is beyond the margin of error.
LOL no it doesn't. I am not going to go into a full explanation of how statistics work here and when you decide you have meaningful results based on sample size.  Please offer me as many Dr Onos that you can I will trade you my tan Hurts.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2740
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #222 on: November 20, 2020, 10:11:51 AM »

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2020, 10:27:16 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)
I agreed already that the VISUAL impact is more but the CENTERING impact is the same!!!  You just proved to me that the whole grading process is the crock I thought it was.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2740
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #224 on: November 20, 2020, 10:39:44 AM »
I agreed already that the VISUAL impact is more but the CENTERING impact is the same!!!  You just proved to me that the whole grading process is the crock I thought it was.

You are certainly entitled to make up your own definition of centering, but yours is not the one used by card collectors. Centering is defined as what percentage of the total border width is on each side. That is impacted more severely for a card with thinner borders.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 10:41:45 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline faustxxx

  • Posts: 42
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #225 on: November 20, 2020, 10:43:38 AM »
You are certainly entitled to make up your own definition of centering, but yours is not the one used by card collectors.
  I agree, There is an example of a 10 on Ebay right now that is tragically off center: 1966 Make Your Own Name Stickers #24, I give it a 60/40 at best, never would I touch that.  I also collect coins and in the numismatic world that would justify a "coffin slab". It is dead to a true collector seeking only perfect graded items.

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #226 on: November 20, 2020, 10:48:51 AM »
LOL no it doesn't. I am not going to go into a full explanation of how statistics work here and when you decide you have meaningful results based on sample size.  Please offer me as many Dr Onos that you can I will trade you my tan Hurts.

Here you are again, skewing the difference between rarity as a title and rarity in high grade.

I never once said that Dr. Ono was more common than a tanback Hurts, so this statement: "Please offer me as many Dr Onos that you can I will trade you my tan Hurts." is completely trivial to the debate.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 11:29:18 AM by NationalSpittoon »

Offline drono

  • Posts: 818
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #227 on: November 20, 2020, 11:43:47 AM »
Would you stop talking about me.  I know that I tend to be off-center!  My ears have been burning for days now.   :'(

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #228 on: November 20, 2020, 04:10:43 PM »
You are certainly entitled to make up your own definition of centering, but yours is not the one used by card collectors. Centering is defined as what percentage of the total border width is on each side. That is impacted more severely for a card with thinner borders.
I had no idea that all this time you guys were collecting eye appeal perfection and not actually card perfection.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #229 on: November 20, 2020, 04:11:21 PM »
  I agree, There is an example of a 10 on Ebay right now that is tragically off center: 1966 Make Your Own Name Stickers #24, I give it a 60/40 at best, never would I touch that.  I also collect coins and in the numismatic world that would justify a "coffin slab". It is dead to a true collector seeking only perfect graded items.
Sounds like the number of examples of nonsensical PSA grading is quite large.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2020, 04:14:20 PM »
Here you are again, skewing the difference between rarity as a title and rarity in high grade.

I never once said that Dr. Ono was more common than a tanback Hurts, so this statement: "Please offer me as many Dr Onos that you can I will trade you my tan Hurts." is completely trivial to the debate.
The sample size and numerical differences in the number of PSA 10s of Tan Hurts and Dr Ono statistically indicate nothing and do nothing to support a theory that the thin borders are the reason for Tan Hurts having only the 1 PSA 10. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 05:28:13 PM by bandaches »
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #231 on: November 20, 2020, 04:37:07 PM »
  I agree, There is an example of a 10 on Ebay right now that is tragically off center: 1966 Make Your Own Name Stickers #24, I give it a 60/40 at best, never would I touch that.  I also collect coins and in the numismatic world that would justify a "coffin slab". It is dead to a true collector seeking only perfect graded items.
60/40 is acceptable for PSA 10
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #232 on: November 20, 2020, 06:07:45 PM »
The sample size and numerical differences in the number of PSA 10s of Tan Hurts and Dr Ono statistically indicate nothing and do nothing to support a theory that the thin borders are the reason for Tan Hurts having only the 1 PSA 10.

I donít even understand the argument at this point. I donít think I ever stated that as a claim.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #233 on: November 20, 2020, 09:01:42 PM »
I donít even understand the argument at this point. I donít think I ever stated that as a claim.
This is your exact statement, really wasn't hard to dig up:
"In high grade, I see Hurts being tougher on centering (especially being a tan back) than Dr. Ono. I donít even see how Dr. Ono being a pulled title makes it that much more expensive, itís worth a couple dollars more. It is no Choke Wagon"

Hurts is tougher on centering from a grading point of view because of the arbitrariness as Dave pointed out that a Hurts and Dr Ono with EXACT same cutting would result in the grading world thinking the Hurts is more off center.  Why you think the tan back would impact centering is beyond me.   I tried to explain to you that the PSA population guide indicating there are fewer Hurts 10's is not actually proof of anything given the small sample size and no details provided on why a title got a 9 vs 10 but that conversation is clearly not fruitful here.

PSA 10 allows for 60/40 centering which Faustxx highlighted is a crock so in the end you are right that a Hurts 10 would be harder to get than a Dr Ono 10 due to grading being focused on eye appeal(borders width) and not actually on the pristineness of the correct cut.  If grading was based consistently on the cut, there is an equal chance that Dr Ono wouldn't be cut perfectly just like Hurts ie or equal chance of the exact cut in Dave's example.

All of this revalidated for me why I never considered collecting PSA graded cards nor will I ever and 100% of the time when I get one, I will sell it. 

In terms of Dr Ono rarity itself, it is a 3rd row sticker that was pulled, it is a fact there are far less Dr Ono's than most of the rest of series 3 and I am certain there are fewer Dr Ono's than Hurts tans so again if grading was focused on the cut and not eye appeal of border widths, clearly there would be fewer Dr Ono 10s because there are fewer Dr Ono's in existence.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 11:33:32 PM by bandaches »
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 1118
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #234 on: November 24, 2020, 06:49:57 AM »
This is your exact statement, really wasn't hard to dig up:
"In high grade, I see Hurts being tougher on centering (especially being a tan back) than Dr. Ono. I donít even see how Dr. Ono being a pulled title makes it that much more expensive, itís worth a couple dollars more. It is no Choke Wagon"

Hurts is tougher on centering from a grading point of view because of the arbitrariness as Dave pointed out that a Hurts and Dr Ono with EXACT same cutting would result in the grading world thinking the Hurts is more off center.  Why you think the tan back would impact centering is beyond me.   I tried to explain to you that the PSA population guide indicating there are fewer Hurts 10's is not actually proof of anything given the small sample size and no details provided on why a title got a 9 vs 10 but that conversation is clearly not fruitful here.

PSA 10 allows for 60/40 centering which Faustxx highlighted is a crock so in the end you are right that a Hurts 10 would be harder to get than a Dr Ono 10 due to grading being focused on eye appeal(borders width) and not actually on the pristineness of the correct cut.  If grading was based consistently on the cut, there is an equal chance that Dr Ono wouldn't be cut perfectly just like Hurts ie or equal chance of the exact cut in Dave's example.

All of this revalidated for me why I never considered collecting PSA graded cards nor will I ever and 100% of the time when I get one, I will sell it. 

In terms of Dr Ono rarity itself, it is a 3rd row sticker that was pulled, it is a fact there are far less Dr Ono's than most of the rest of series 3 and I am certain there are fewer Dr Ono's than Hurts tans so again if grading was focused on the cut and not eye appeal of border widths, clearly there would be fewer Dr Ono 10s because there are fewer Dr Ono's in existence.

"...grading being focused on eye appeal(borders width) and not actually on the pristineness of the correct cut."

Are you suggesting a Clammy could be a PSA 10 with perfect centering even with part of Baby Runt's border on the card? How about Choke King's tilt?

It seems to me that the 60/40 is relational to the border space on the card rather than a universally. With less border space on the Hurts, even slight movement of the image to one side will make the proportion more skewed in juxtaposition to the card as a whole because of the lack of border space. This makes the 60/40 rarer.

Offline jleonard1967

  • Posts: 861
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #235 on: November 24, 2020, 08:21:19 AM »
great point on the clammy.  that frustrates me that to get a higher grade you have to have another cards border on yours for centering.  Grading really satisfies the OCD collector and then just to mess with you they add the cards that National spittoon mentioned

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #236 on: November 25, 2020, 02:32:34 PM »
"...grading being focused on eye appeal(borders width) and not actually on the pristineness of the correct cut."

Are you suggesting a Clammy could be a PSA 10 with perfect centering even with part of Baby Runt's border on the card? How about Choke King's tilt?

It seems to me that the 60/40 is relational to the border space on the card rather than a universally. With less border space on the Hurts, even slight movement of the image to one side will make the proportion more skewed in juxtaposition to the card as a whole because of the lack of border space. This makes the 60/40 rarer.
Where did you read that I suggested a miscut card would be PSA 10?  If topps intent is to cut cards so the cards overlap then that is a perfect cut.  Obvious that is not the case so your suggesting is ridiculous.  This conversation is going nowhere, obviously I can't convince you that the thin border impact is eye appeal based regardless of whether it is the industry standard.    This will be my last attempt, let's assume a card with perfect centering has 1 cm border and another has 2 cm border.  BOTH are miscut by .5 cm.  The industry standard is to declare the 1 cm border card is more offcenter.  It is flat out wrong...but the eye appeal is much worse on the 1 cm card, I get it, grading is on eye appeal.  Call it what it is.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #237 on: November 25, 2020, 02:37:27 PM »
great point on the clammy.  that frustrates me that to get a higher grade you have to have another cards border on yours for centering.  Grading really satisfies the OCD collector and then just to mess with you they add the cards that National spittoon mentioned
I disagree, a perfectly cut Clammy has thinner border on top than bottom per the intent in cutting the sheet. IF the grading world has created some other rule for that to be perfect...oh well...
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline ToadallyDude

  • Posts: 331
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #238 on: November 25, 2020, 05:26:25 PM »
Yay!  "Minutiae" is still alive in Wackys!  It's like reading an argument from 1998!

(Anyone know why PSA didn't bother putting the series# on the Cover Ghoul & put 'green bottle' instead?  Sounds really unofficial & lacking the more important info).

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3931
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: WP Forum PSA Thread
« Reply #239 on: November 26, 2020, 03:24:53 AM »
Yay!  "Minutiae" is still alive in Wackys!  It's like reading an argument from 1998!

(Anyone know why PSA didn't bother putting the series# on the Cover Ghoul & put 'green bottle' instead?  Sounds really unofficial & lacking the more important info).
Psa is in no way shape or form experts in the stuff they grade.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!