Author Topic: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS  (Read 1960 times)

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Offline koduck

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IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« on: April 29, 2017, 07:27:42 AM »
To All Forum Members:

I am the utmost proponent for free speech, but I must ask that people kindly refrain from calling out an individual, whether it's an artist, a collector or whomever. Critiquing the art, the jokes or even the size of the black borders is part of what we do, but please remember, no individual is solely responsible for the success or failure of a set. So, please keep that in mind when posting. It's just as easy to voice our opinions with our wallets.

THANK YOU!

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2017, 07:42:42 AM »
Neil,

Just making sure I understand what you're saying here. Do you think it's inappropriate on a Wacky Packages fan forum for someone to post: "I don't like artist X's art style", provided that it is done without being impolite? Is this driven by the fact that there are artists who participate here? For example, would you think it inappropriate if I posted in a comic book forum: "I can't stand Jack Kirby's 1970's Captain America art"?

I'm asking because, on the one hand, it's nice to have artists participate in the forum, but I'd hate to think that that would create a chilling affect that would stifle fans' ability to freely offer opinions.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 07:50:21 AM »
I guess I just need a clarification on what you mean by "calling out."

Offline koduck

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2017, 08:07:00 AM »
Saying, "I don't like Artist X's style" OR "I prefer "Artist Y's style" is stating a personal preference. Nothing wrong with that.

When it's merely "I don't like Artist X", without a tangible reference, it's akin to a potshot. Gotta avoid those.

Offline RawGoo

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 08:15:33 AM »
I guess I just need a clarification on what you mean by "calling out."

It seems to be getting very personal as of late, as opposed to general criticism and comments on the titles, gags, and preference for styles.  While we are all free to say what we think, and purchase what we feel is of value to us, the insults and some of the other comments have been escalating beyond the bounds of propriety, at least IMO.

With regular set packs and boxes, we get whatever Wacky art is included, no choice.  With POD, the best way for us to express to Topps that some of the recent titles are not popular, and possibly influence the end results, is simply for sales to go down compared to other titles. 

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2017, 08:46:09 AM »
When it's merely "I don't like Artist X", without a tangible reference, it's akin to a potshot. Gotta avoid those.

I'm pretty sure when someone says "I don't like artist X," they are referring to their work. I don't think anyone here is expressing a dislike for the person.

Sure, it would be nice for no one's feelings to be hurt, but the fact is that fan discussion boards have always been a place where voicing opinions, both positive and negative, about art, writing and/or creative directions, even in vehement terms, has been commonplace.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with voicing a distaste for an artist's  entire body of work if that's the way someone feels.

Back when Rob Liefeld briefly took over several Marvel titles, there was a large segment of fans who despised his work, and voiced their displeasure emphatically. I think not doing that would have been sending the message that people are OK with the work, making it more likely for that artistic direction to continue unchanged.

If fans of the WP franchise feel strongly negative about an artistic direction, they have every right to voice that opinion, though I agree that if they do so without simultaneously using the power of the purse, it doesn't mean much.


Offline koduck

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 09:09:45 AM »

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with voicing a distaste for an artist's  entire body of work if that's the way someone feels.


I never said that. What would a forum be without everyone's opinions? My point is that there's different ways to state them (see my previous post). One way is respectful, the other is not.

Online Baked Bears

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 04:49:14 PM »
Along with Mr. Camera's other accomplishments, he might also add moderator, diplomat, and/or statesman (but, alas, still not coffee grower!)

First and foremost, I respect the advice offered in the aforementioned posts on this thread and will sincerely try my best to heed by and put it into practice.

All in all, I cannot say that I am surprised by what has been happening on the forum of late - and Neil's subsequent and heartfelt cry of "respect, please" among everyone in our group. It is obvious that he is trying to hold the community together.  One didn't necessarily need a crystal ball to see that a storm was approaching.  It was inevitable.  The black clouds have been looming on the horizon for a while.

For me, Wackys are not just an intellectual experience, but moreover, an emotional experience - even passionate.  Whether in my admiration for the artwork, ties with tradition, appreciation of humor, future expectations - certain levels of emotion are always predominant.  And I also feel that I am not alone in this regard.  At the show last weekend, you could feel this very emotion in the air.  It was palpable, manifesting itself a thousand ways through excitement and smiles and laughter and appreciation and awe.  As I've stated elsewhere, the very reason for the existence of Wackys is to make people smile, to inspire a sense of joy.  Wackys and emotion walk hand in hand.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe that many people here - although highly appreciative of Wackys - are disappointed, discontent, and disgruntled - and have been for some time.  Moreover, this effect has been cumulative, a rolling emotional snowball that keeps growing larger and larger.  Of course, everyone here is well-versed in the downward curve that WP have taken in recent times:

Thin borders.
   Generic products.
      Satire over parody.
         No more die-cuts.
            Extravagant prices.
               The 50th Anniversary Set letdown.

I believe this last was the proverbial "icing on the cake."  It shattered so many expectations and broke with tradition (a tradition it should have been celebrating.)  Now we have members bashing this and trashing that - myself included.  Whispers of dissent now ripple the air.  Swiski has stopped adding posts to the "Gag Criticism and Variation" thread - a post celebrating Wackys and read over 36,000 times.  (And although I may have not added much to this in the way of comments, I used to enjoy paying a visit over there.)

And still the downward curve continues...

                  Rushed artwork.
                     Googled images.
                        Recycled artwork posing as new.
                       
A few more straws to be loaded onto an already overburdened camel's back.  Additional insult added to injury.  I could be mistaken, but I believe many members - both collectors and artists - have felt slighted, if not insulted, by some of the latest turn of events - and are reacting as one might expect them to react: views and responses steeped in emotion, running the spectrum from insightful and grounded to resentful to boorish and crass.

I believe Neil is right, though.  We must maintain a sense of dignity and respect if our community is to hold itself together and prosper.  I, for one, am willing to give it a go.  Will I feel stifled at times?  Yes, I already have.  Upon reading Neil's first post, it has taken me hours to digest it and a few more to properly word my response.   Will I make future criticisms?  Yes, in all likelihood.  I cannot promise, though, that I will not name anybody.  (It bothers me to speak of somebody in the third person, let alone refer to that person as simply "he" or "she."  To me, this borders on being disrespectful.)  Thus, if I refer to, say, Ms. Im, who has been a topic of late, I will call her exactly that.  (I mean, really, it is her name.)  I will also do my best to back up any criticism with direct and specific examples, and avoid hyperbole.  (Many are the times I've questioned my own remarks and have sometimes sought out the advice of other forum members in regard to this.)  I cannot say, though, that I'll always cloak my criticism behind metaphor.  Some of the most cruelest and hurtful comments are often made within the bounds of propriety, cleverly hidden behind the thinnest veils of polite metaphor.

So, thank you, Neil, for your sage advice - and your concern in looking out for the overall welfare of our community.

Offline Swiski

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 10:42:08 PM »
Swiski has stopped adding posts to the "Gag Criticism and Variation" thread - a post celebrating Wackys and read over 36,000 times.  (And although I may have not added much to this in the way of comments, I used to enjoy paying a visit over there.)

Thanks for pointing this out, BB! Totally forgot about the GC&V thread. Over the last few weeks, I've been busy with something or another. So I kinda let it drift out of my mindset. I will be definitely restart the comparison image machine...as long as I have decent real product images.

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 11:07:29 PM »

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with voicing a distaste for an artist's  entire body of work if that's the way someone feels.

Back when Rob Liefeld briefly took over several Marvel titles, there was a large segment of fans who despised his work, and voiced their displeasure emphatically. I think not doing that would have been sending the message that people are OK with the work, making it more likely for that artistic direction to continue unchanged.


Ah yes, Heroes Reborn.  That took place when I was the assistant editor on the X-Men family of books as well as the assistant to the Editor in Chief of Marvel at the time.  While the books were creatively outsourced to the west coast guys (Rob and Jim), we still handled the printing and everything else (and I was the default handler of it).  So all that material came across my desk. 

But I comment because when the deal was finalized, Rob was out to the Marvel offices in NYC and there was an informal party/get-together of Marvel employees and some freelancers to, I if I recall correctly, mark the event.  The place was Openers bar. 

Well, people that had privately said they couldn't stand Rob's work were congratulating him and shaking his hand at this party, and I found it quite a bit disingenuous - and I was determined to tell him how I really felt, to be honest with the guy. 

I didn't really know Rob at the time, but since I was aware of the deal's details and was going to be serving as the New York trafficker of the materials for printing, I approached him to discuss the books.  And I rallied enough courage to eventually say to Rob, to his face, "I"m really not a fan of your artwork" and I laid out some of the reasons why.   Gulp. 

Rob, being the affible guy then that I've generally found him to be in the years since, took the criticism as well as anyone probably could.  He went on a rather long explanation of how he was trying new things and looking at his own past work critically and wanting to grow as an artist, and ended with something to the effect of "So, I'm not the biggest fan of my artwork right now either."

It was, even then, an unusually frank and warm conversation that also risked going south.  These days, with so much said behind the veil of anonymity and so forth, I'd suspect it's even more unusual.  But I took a risk to criticize Rob's work, and Rob took it well.  He might not have. 

I'd like to think the exchange served to form the basis for a solid relationship.  Rob and I would have other dealings in the years after that would put us at odds, but I always enjoyed the guy, even if I never could quite come around to his artwork.  I never faltered on my enthusiasm for his ideas, some of which were less-than-inspired (though some were), but the volume of which recalled creators of an earlier age.  Rob really was and probably still is an idea MACHINE.  He's also a lot of fun, if you let him be.  Yet he is one of the most vilified people in the industry. 

I guess I bring it up because I enjoy telling the story, but also because of this: I think it's okay to be critical, even if you're looking the person in the face.   But if you remove yourself from the idea of the risk of that face-to-face consequence, things can get ugly and dehumanizing pretty quick.  When I criticized Rob, I was reminded he was a person, because he was standing a foot away from me.  I think we should always strive to remember the human behind the name or handle.  Not to back down on a well thought out criticism, but to be good humans ourselves. 
Jason Liebig - Curator of CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2017, 04:25:57 AM »
Jason,

Your story, in addition to being interesting, illustrates my view on this situation perfectly. As a co-worker of Rob's, you had an obligation to treat him decently regardless of your feelings about his work. Arguably, the fact that you were not a fan was not even relevant to the professional situation, but if you felt you needed to be frank about that, you seem to have done so in the most respectful way possible.

On the other hand, Captain America fans on a message board really have no such obligation. They are merely consumers of Rob's artistic output, and if they detest that, have a right to speak their minds, and I'm sure Rob was mature enough to simply view that as fans being fans and shrug it off, even if the sheer volume of such response might have hurt him a little.

I would compare it to the current political situation. I bet there are a lot of people who have had to work with the president who don't like him much. Perhaps some of them have come away from him with a different view than they started with. One thing is for sure though: very few members of the general public who were so inclined saw anything wrong with engaging in their public orgy of Trump hatred, without much regard for his humanity. It seems to be an inescapable part of being a public figure.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 06:48:13 AM »
...and for anyone unfamiliar with Liefeld's work, this is all you need to see!


Offline All-Brain

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 10:39:31 AM »
Wow. I wonder how he renders the greatest super hero.............HULK

Offline Brian Mc

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2017, 10:51:28 AM »
...and for anyone unfamiliar with Liefeld's work, this is all you need to see!

(Image removed from quote.)

And I hope to never see it again. That's atrocious. Different, but atrocious.
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Offline Jean Nutty

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2017, 10:56:13 AM »
When I criticized Rob, I was reminded he was a person, because he was standing a foot away from me. 

I think we should always strive to remember the human behind the name or handle. 

Well said.  It's why online critique, debate, and sharing of opinions and emotionally held viewpoints can be (and is), so challenging.

I've posted comments on the web that I either wouldn't say in person, or would be significantly toned down.

In person, we have more leeway because of the non-verbal communication reflecting our respect for each other. Well, usually.

Offline Brian Mc

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2017, 10:56:41 AM »
Wow. I wonder how he renders the greatest super hero.............HULK

Judging by this picture, there is no Hulk in this timeline - Cap obviously ate him
Brian Mc

Offline Jean Nutty

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 11:00:49 AM »
Judging by this picture, there is no Hulk in this timeline - Cap obviously ate him

 :s_laugh: :s_laugh: :s_laugh:

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 11:13:34 AM »
Wow. I wonder how he renders the greatest super hero.............HULK

You asked for it....


Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 11:19:07 AM »
Well said.  It's why online critique, debate, and sharing of opinions and emotionally held viewpoints can be (and is), so challenging.

I've posted comments on the web that I either wouldn't say in person, or would be significantly toned down.

In person, we have more leeway because of the non-verbal communication reflecting our respect for each other. Well, usually.

I just think a distinction needs to be drawn between ripping an artist on an online fan forum and ripping them on their twitter page. On a forum, you are not directing your comments to the object of the criticism, and I see less need to be measured and polite unless you want to be.

When Vito from Gravesend calls WFAN to rant about the Mets, he doesn't necessarily want to be measured and polite, and in a forum like that I don't think that should be the expectation.

Offline All-Brain

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 02:04:50 PM »
You asked for it....

(Image removed from quote.)

Oh my goodness. His style is  sure "different"...........wow

Offline bandaches

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2017, 05:19:37 PM »
I read very few threads here relating to the new stuff so to some degree i am an outsider to the process.   There's enough concern and confusion conveyed in this thread that without specific examples being called out, i don't believe the change trying to be affected here will take place.

If some comments are deemed to be over some limit and attacking in natur, then clearly they can be dealt with head-on without concern.
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Offline koduck

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2017, 06:09:53 PM »
Some of the comments have been deleted by the original posters, so it's no wonder the thread seems confusing now.

Offline bandaches

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 07:34:54 PM »
Some of the comments have been deleted by the original posters, so it's no wonder the thread seems confusing now.
ugh, then perhaps at least they realize they went over the line.  I do have a question, when we ridicule the gags of original wackys, many of which are really poor, is that an example of going over the line?  I have no idea who directly wrote the gags so regardless of whether a specific person is referenced, if it is know who wrote a particular gag and that gag is ridiculed, is that going over the line?
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Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2017, 09:32:10 PM »
I just think a distinction needs to be drawn between ripping an artist on an online fan forum and ripping them on their twitter page. On a forum, you are not directing your comments to the object of the criticism, and I see less need to be measured and polite unless you want to be.

When Vito from Gravesend calls WFAN to rant about the Mets, he doesn't necessarily want to be measured and polite, and in a forum like that I don't think that should be the expectation.

I think this is possibly how most people feel.  Going online, it seems like most people, but that might not be accurate. 

At any rate, I would disagree with the broad sentiment.   

Perhaps, having been the target of sometimes harsh public statements and critiques, my own perspective is one that cannot be easily related to.  Though, even when I was working on popular comic books, I might have been more thoughtful than others in similar professional positions.  I had at least one fellow professional state that I "should be dead" on an occasion or two.  A fascinating critique on the way I was breathing at the time I have to imagine....
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Offline koduck

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2017, 06:37:42 AM »
ugh, then perhaps at least they realize they went over the line.  I do have a question, when we ridicule the gags of original wackys, many of which are really poor, is that an example of going over the line?  I have no idea who directly wrote the gags so regardless of whether a specific person is referenced, if it is know who wrote a particular gag and that gag is ridiculed, is that going over the line?

Just to be clear, the intent of this thread isn't about censorship. Nothing good comes of that. Feel free to critique the art, the artists, and anything else on your mind. All we're asking is that you be respectful of others in your posts.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2017, 09:32:08 AM »
Just to be clear, the intent of this thread isn't about censorship. Nothing good comes of that. Feel free to critique the art, the artists, and anything else on your mind. All we're asking is that you be respectful of others in your posts.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't understand what you consider "disrespectful." Many of the cards in recent Topps releases making fun of public figures could be classified as "disrespectful."  I guess the assumption is that political or pop culture figures are "fair game" and that they wouldn't care how a wacky artist depicts them. But that's exactly the way pro artists should approach comments on a fan internet site. As public figures, they are fair game for negative fan commentary and if they find it distasteful, they should avoid such sites. You can't prevent this stuff any more than you can tell a fan not to boo at a Yankee game or a rabid demonstrator not to compare Donald Trump to Hitler.

The only reason this is an issue at all is because there is an overlap between forum participants and Topps creators. So, I would suggest that if the presence of Topps creators on the forum is something the larger community values, then a higher standard of behavior is necessary to ensure that participation continues. How that would be enforced is unclear, but defining precisely what is viewed as disrespectful and inappropriate would be a necessary first step.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 11:06:19 AM by Paul_Maul »

Online slamjim

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2017, 11:17:15 AM »
I believe Neil is saying that this is not appropriate:

"Topps artist (insert name - which we already know who this thread was created about) is a asshole jerk off and I hate their crap art."

Appropriate:

"I hate the crap art of (specific Topps artist)."

Curse, crucify, hate on the specific art (or the body of work), not the human being. I don't care either way. I think that is what he's saying though.

Offline Zenergizer

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2017, 11:37:57 AM »
Amen to that!  We all have the right to free speech, but should always keep in mind that it is a two-way street
and there's a way to be civil about it.  We're all fans of Wackys, we wouldn't be here otherwise, whether you are a
collector, artist, creator, anyone.  If you're not a fan of a certain title, just skip it and don't purchase that one. 

IMHO, say what you want about anyone else, the concepts, the gag, the artwork, etc., but if you knew that were a chance
that (insert name - which we already know who this thread was created about, or anyone) were on the forum and reading
these posts, would you be as "vocal"?

Maybe some would, maybe some wouldn't, just being hypothetical, no need to drag this on.

Offline RawGoo

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2017, 03:22:04 PM »
I believe Neil is saying that this is not appropriate:

"Topps artist (insert name - which we already know who this thread was created about) is a asshole jerk off and I hate their crap art."

Appropriate:

"I hate the crap art of (specific Topps artist)."

Curse, crucify, hate on the specific art (or the body of work), not the human being. I don't care either way. I think that is what he's saying though.

I think that's the gist of it.  We have had a past practice of reviewing and critiquing OS, ANS, Postcards, and Old School Wackys, both gags and artwork, knowing that some of the artists were forum members, but it never got personal like what was happening here recently.  This whole thread is now confusing because several users deleted their posts.

So, let's all move on - when will we have Old School 6??
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 03:40:12 PM by RawGoo »

Offline bigtomi

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2017, 04:06:04 PM »
Just to be clear, the intent of this thread isn't about censorship. Nothing good comes of that. Feel free to critique the art, the artists, and anything else on your mind. All we're asking is that you be respectful of others in your posts.
Like Paul_Maul, I don't want to beat a dead horse and I'm ready to move on...after I say this: The above is a contradiction. This is about censorship, IMO. A governor is being placed on what can be acceptably stated. Opinions are being controlled. K, done now.  :)

Online Baked Bears

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2017, 05:51:42 PM »
So, let's all move on - when will we have Old School 6??

And if nobody can wait for OS6, please bear in mind that this fine collection is still available on eBay:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/132116803261?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Online Baked Bears

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2017, 06:43:15 PM »
Many, many moons ago, the hard rock act Aerosmith passed through Philadelphia on one leg of their tour.  Opening for Aerosmith was the new wave band Blondie.  As soon as Blondie begin their first song, the crowd began booing and hissing and cursing and catcalling.  Within a minute, the band stopped playing as Deborah Harry, the lead singer, ran off the stage in tears.  Aerosmith then proceeded with their set.

Interpret how you will.

Offline Kook

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2017, 06:48:05 PM »
Like Paul_Maul, I don't want to beat a dead horse and I'm ready to move on...after I say this: The above is a contradiction. This is about censorship, IMO. A governor is being placed on what can be acceptably stated. Opinions are being controlled. K, done now.  :)

I agree bigtomi. I do recall reading many posts about the poor quality artwork creeping in lately, I do remember the artist being mentioned and quite a bit of criticism about the work. Passionate, I would say, possibly speculative, but I don't recall any personal attacks.

This thread seems more like a call for "political correctness" than a legitimate request to stop personal character attacks IMO. I'm done now too.

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2017, 08:37:55 PM »
I agree bigtomi. I do recall reading many posts about the poor quality artwork creeping in lately, I do remember the artist being mentioned and quite a bit of criticism about the work. Passionate, I would say, possibly speculative, but I don't recall any personal attacks.

This thread seems more like a call for "political correctness" than a legitimate request to stop personal character attacks IMO. I'm done now too.

I'm not a fan of the hyper-reactive responses to comments and the rush to "being offended".  It's tiresome and loses its sense of consequence pretty quickly.   At the same time, I recall a time when "being an asshole" was something no one would ever claim to be proud of.   Yet were are faced with far too much of both these days, IMO.

And I'm only saying this, not because I saw that anyone here was an asshole, or was necessarily hyper-sensitive or hyper-offended (honestly, I'm coming in late in the conversation and don't know exactly what started it at this point).  I say it because between those two divergent tent posts (empowered virtrol-filled free speech and being offended by every little thing), there is a rich middle ground of passionately speaking your mind while retaining some level of intelligence, respect and civility.   

I'd never suggest a set of strict rules or forum policies, because really, policies were never going to stop a person who was going to be a giant asshole from being one.  That's the problem with most policies, anyway, the person who screwed up and inspired said policy wouldn't have been stopped by it in the first place.  Similarly, if someone is going to look for offenses, they'll find them. 

To Paul_Maul's point, I have always enjoyed the cliched idea of the passionate sports fan, "Go back to Jersey, ya bum!"  It's part of the fun, I think.  Certainly for long-suffering Mets fans.  And I think that kind of fandom-speak must still have it's place.  The kind of passionate outburst of fandom, both the positive and the negative.   I'd hate to see that be restricted. 

Yet there must also be room for discussion and thoughtful consideration.   Is there a point where it can go to far?   Or is there not?  Do we reserve the right to say whatever we want, however we want about those in the public eye, and not find ourselves socially ostracized if we exhibit the worst of it?

I don't think we worried about it when people had to live side-by-side and face-to-face when expressing themselves.   The checks and balances were clear - if you went too far, there were consequences.  But the insulation that anonymity that the internet provides has allowed for the creation of a hyper fringe, on both sides.  The hyper-offended, and the hyper-offensive.  Those who don't simply call things they dislike "awful" or "terrible" or "the worst" but rather wish for "the suicides" of those in charge of said things.  Because I've experienced that as well... from "fans".  And it's a bit chilling when you see it.  Even if, for me anyway, it became more of a lighter story I would tell over the years about how truly messed-up and unfortunate some fans were.   

And I think it's that kind of messed up fringe behavior that gets pushed back on by even reasonable people, and the push back spills over to touch the kind of language that used to be, well, somehow okay even in civil society.    And now, somehow, it's not.  So those fringes burn away even a section of the middle ground because ultimately both fringes are a bit destructive to language and interaction. 

Me, I like it a little spicy, but with some sense of awareness and respect of your fellow man.  But also a sense of humor, too.     

Jason Liebig - Curator of CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all.

Offline FourRoses

  • Posts: 494
Re: IMPORTANT REMINDER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2017, 07:20:49 AM »
Along with Mr. Camera's other accomplishments, he might also add moderator, diplomat, and/or statesman (but, alas, still not coffee grower!)

Next to my mother (who was a teacher for 30+ yrs) Neil has the best penmanship I have ever seen. THat was completely OT but whatever.

 

anything