Author Topic: OS Frequent OC Cards  (Read 12256 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2016, 06:20:30 PM »
I was just kidding Ernie. I really don't know what you're talking about, I don't believe a hard crease can be removed from a card, but maybe someday you can show me how it's done.
BTW I never said I know how its done so I have no expertise in this area.  Certainly a hard deep crease would unlikely be removable but light creases seems very likely based on what I have read is going on in baseball card arena.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline quas

  • Posts: 883
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2016, 06:36:19 PM »
Botox?  Or maybe a name brand, like BoTopps?   ;)
Marc

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2430
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2016, 03:33:31 AM »
BTW I never said I know how its done so I have no expertise in this area.  Certainly a hard deep crease would unlikely be removable but light creases seems very likely based on what I have read is going on in baseball card arena.

I am well aware of slimy practices that go on relative to squeezing money out of collectibles. The comic book world is where this is truly sickening, I don't even want to mention some of the things that are done because I find it so depressing. However, grading companies are partially successful because of these shenanigans, buying an encapsulated item gives the buyer peace of mind that the card hasn't been trimmed, recolored, etc. Yes, they are imperfect. 12 years ago CGC certified a bunch of comics that were trimmed in a way they could not recognize at the time. It's like steroids, the slime balls always try to stay ahead of the grading companies. I hate this stuff, but I refuse to let it ruin my hobbies, because then the bad guys have won.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2016, 09:08:59 AM »
I am well aware of slimy practices that go on relative to squeezing money out of collectibles. The comic book world is where this is truly sickening, I don't even want to mention some of the things that are done because I find it so depressing. However, grading companies are partially successful because of these shenanigans, buying an encapsulated item gives the buyer peace of mind that the card hasn't been trimmed, recolored, etc. Yes, they are imperfect. 12 years ago CGC certified a bunch of comics that were trimmed in a way they could not recognize at the time. It's like steroids, the slime balls always try to stay ahead of the grading companies. I hate this stuff, but I refuse to let it ruin my hobbies, because then the bad guys have won.
I disagree with you that grading gives a buyer peace of mind.  Many graded baseball cards had creases at one point, now they don't and PSA has no idea.  Is that what you meant by peace of mind?
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2430
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2016, 09:18:46 AM »
I disagree with you that grading gives a buyer peace of mind.  Many graded baseball cards had creases at one point, now they don't and PSA has no idea.  Is that what you meant by peace of mind?

I believe you are exaggerating how widespread this practice is. And yes, PSA and CGC may not be perfect, but they are far better at catching restoration, trimming and recoloring then I am, so even if they are imperfect, I have more peace of mind than I would buying a raw card on ebay.

Particularly, with unopened packs, I would have far more peace of mind buying an expensive pack knowing it has the stamp of approval of a knowledgeable and ethical hobby figure, rather than buying it raw on ebay, where the odds of re-sealing are alarmingly high.

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 954
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2016, 11:55:21 AM »
What is with this "crease" argument?
Mark

Offline quas

  • Posts: 883
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2016, 12:02:29 PM »
What is with this "crease" argument?

Whatever it is, it is getting in-crease-ingly more interesting.
Marc

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2430
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2016, 12:09:07 PM »
And by the way, it makes perfect sense to me that an 8-Lives is more desirable centered even though that's not its natural state based on sheet placement. Centering is valued for esthetic reasons. There are a lot of cards that are hard to find well-centered for a bunch of different reasons, and they all command a premium when centered. Why should 8-Lives be any different?

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 954
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2016, 01:48:18 PM »
And by the way, it makes perfect sense to me that an 8-Lives is more desirable centered even though that's not its natural state based on sheet placement. Centering is valued for esthetic reasons. There are a lot of cards that are hard to find well-centered for a bunch of different reasons, and they all command a premium when centered. Why should 8-Lives be any different?

It's not any different...
Mark

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2016, 07:33:01 PM »
I believe you are exaggerating how widespread this practice is. And yes, PSA and CGC may not be perfect, but they are far better at catching restoration, trimming and recoloring then I am, so even if they are imperfect, I have more peace of mind than I would buying a raw card on ebay.

Particularly, with unopened packs, I would have far more peace of mind buying an expensive pack knowing it has the stamp of approval of a knowledgeable and ethical hobby figure, rather than buying it raw on ebay, where the odds of re-sealing are alarmingly high.
According to the baseball card forums, I am not exaggerating.  I advise you visit more baseball card forums.  I only started visiting them thanks to Steve dropping by with his incredible insite on unopen package valuation only to find out he didn't have that much insight after all.  I was wondering if his approach to communication in the baseball card world was the same as it was here.  While checking out the forums, I noticed lots of chatter about crease correction yet they all said it was taboo to talk about it.

What exactly is it that you are satisfying with high grade material?  It is visually satisfying?   You can't possibly tell the different between a crease corrected card and one that is not as PSA supposedly misses many.  I would argue that most crease corrected cards are graded as why bother crease correcting it and not reaping the benefits of a high PSA grade?  Therefore, I think your peace of mind is not well founded as I think the higher likelihood of getting a high grade crease corrected card is a PSA slabbed one versus one you find on ebay sold as an ungraded card.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 07:38:06 PM by bandaches »
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2016, 07:36:05 PM »
And by the way, it makes perfect sense to me that an 8-Lives is more desirable centered even though that's not its natural state based on sheet placement. Centering is valued for esthetic reasons. There are a lot of cards that are hard to find well-centered for a bunch of different reasons, and they all command a premium when centered. Why should 8-Lives be any different?
A crease corrected card is aesthetically pleasing yet you are so concerned about a crease corrected card, you would pay extra for PSA's opinion about something you can't even spot and that PSA could/does miss anyway.  That just doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2430
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2016, 07:53:13 PM »
Ernie, you're blowing this crease correction thing way out of proportion. If it were that easy don't you think high grade Rookie cards would be coming out of the woodwork the way their values have skyrocketed? That hasn't happened. I looked at net 54 and I see a couple of people (who I don't know, and who may have some vested interested or bias) touting crease removal. That's all I see. I really don't think it's a big issue but I respect your right to disagree.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2016, 08:14:46 PM »
Ernie, you're blowing this crease correction thing way out of proportion. If it were that easy don't you think high grade Rookie cards would be coming out of the woodwork the way their values have skyrocketed? That hasn't happened. I looked at net 54 and I see a couple of people (who I don't know, and who may have some vested interested or bias) touting crease removal. That's all I see. I really don't think it's a big issue but I respect your right to disagree.
Rookie cards HAVE and will continue to come out of the woodwork now that their prices have skyrocketed due to what I believe is baby boomer oldest kids starting to retire with money to burn.  The problem is, most old cards don't have creasing issues, they have corner issues and I haven;'t heard anyone has figured out how to fix the corners.  I absolutely believe that perfectly cornered, perfectly centered yet creased old rookie cards are being fixed, no question in my mind.

Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline MoldRush

  • Posts: 292
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2016, 01:40:48 PM »
I would think that potentially high valued rookie cards that have a crease which would potentially lower the grade but also have sharp corners and centering so as to otherwise merit a NM grade would be an unusual situation; the presence of even soft creases SHOULD mean that the card in question was not handled with utmost care (i.e., owned by a typical kid of the 50's to 70's) and would therefore have other grade-lowering condition issues.  Hopefully this is true and the crease ironing is not as rampant a practice as you believe.  The other, more depressing possibility is that they're doctoring more than creases.  You can never overestimate the resourcefulness of the counterfeiter, which is what this practice is to me.

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2430
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2016, 02:30:45 PM »
I would think that potentially high valued rookie cards that have a crease which would potentially lower the grade but also have sharp corners and centering so as to otherwise merit a NM grade would be an unusual situation; the presence of even soft creases SHOULD mean that the card in question was not handled with utmost care (i.e., owned by a typical kid of the 50's to 70's) and would therefore have other grade-lowering condition issues.  Hopefully this is true and the crease ironing is not as rampant a practice as you believe.  The other, more depressing possibility is that they're doctoring more than creases.  You can never overestimate the resourcefulness of the counterfeiter, which is what this practice is to me.

I think what you say is true. And yes, people frequently try to trim and re-color cards to improve their appearance, which is one of the reasons why PSA (who, while imperfect, does specifically check for these things) became popular in the first place.

Offline MoldRush

  • Posts: 292
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2016, 04:19:49 PM »
Reminds me of a time I tried to do that as a 7- or 8-year old, a really wrinkled and faded 1975 Topps baseball card, I think it was Don Hahn of the Mets, I tried to use blue and orange markers to restore the bold colors of the border.  That was the set where there was no consistent color scheme for a given team.  It only ended up looking worse I'm sure.

Offline Paul_Maul

  • Posts: 2430
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2016, 05:10:34 PM »
I absolutely believe that perfectly cornered, perfectly centered yet creased old rookie cards are being fixed, no question in my mind.

Just occurred to me that the most likely source of cards like you're describing is from cutting up sheets.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2016, 08:52:17 PM »
Just occurred to me that the most likely source of cards like you're describing is from cutting up sheets.
Yes, that would be a great source for sure
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2016, 08:57:08 PM »
I think what you say is true. And yes, people frequently try to trim and re-color cards to improve their appearance, which is one of the reasons why PSA (who, while imperfect, does specifically check for these things) became popular in the first place.
One of the baseball forums that goes back like 25 years discusses that it is very common practice to improve card appearance. Various kits were(are) being sold that fix each of the various types of issues from card loss, to corners, to color to creases.

The big debate there is that many said there is nothing wrong with crease and corner cleanup or anything that puts the card back to its original shape without adding foreign material to the card ie no color fixing, no fixing card loss but crease cleanup and corner cleanup(not  with trimming) should be accepted as perfectly fine.  It all feeds into my theory that they whole PSA grading thing is a crock.  Why doesn't someone care if a minor crease is fixed on a card to make it look perfect again?  Is is reasonable to think two identical cards, one that had crease cleaned up and one without should being worth potentially 1000% differently in value?  Ridiculous.
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline MoldRush

  • Posts: 292
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2016, 10:33:31 AM »
As someone into vintage comics and cards myself, I have to admit I'm largely clueless as to the extent of these restoration activities.  That being said, I haven't really chased high-end stuff where the likelihood of paying full market price for an "enhanced" item would be high.  The most I've ever paid for a single comic is probably only in the $15 to $20 range, and that was probably in the early 90's.

I'm also a lifelong, off-and-on coin collector, and one of the maxims of that hobby is "before you buy the coin, buy the book", meaning become as knowledgeable and informed as you can possibly be before splurging for a big-ticket item, or even not-so-expensive coins.  There's a whole variety of unscrupulous activities going on ranging from using chemical or mechanical restorative tactics (a big no-no in the hobby) to outright fakes and counterfeits of rare and valuable coins.   As far as cards are concerned,  I'm sure Ernie is far more armed with the info and knowledge to avoid being scammed than most of us.  Basically if you have enough passion for a given hobby to invest the time to gain the necessary knowledge, you become the shady dealer's worst nightmare.

Offline bandaches

  • Posts: 3650
  • I had wacky sketch addiction!
    • Visit my Wacky Pack Website
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2016, 03:02:31 PM »
As someone into vintage comics and cards myself, I have to admit I'm largely clueless as to the extent of these restoration activities.  That being said, I haven't really chased high-end stuff where the likelihood of paying full market price for an "enhanced" item would be high.  The most I've ever paid for a single comic is probably only in the $15 to $20 range, and that was probably in the early 90's.

I'm also a lifelong, off-and-on coin collector, and one of the maxims of that hobby is "before you buy the coin, buy the book", meaning become as knowledgeable and informed as you can possibly be before splurging for a big-ticket item, or even not-so-expensive coins.  There's a whole variety of unscrupulous activities going on ranging from using chemical or mechanical restorative tactics (a big no-no in the hobby) to outright fakes and counterfeits of rare and valuable coins.   As far as cards are concerned,  I'm sure Ernie is far more armed with the info and knowledge to avoid being scammed than most of us.  Basically if you have enough passion for a given hobby to invest the time to gain the necessary knowledge, you become the shady dealer's worst nightmare.
Fantastic post!  :bravo_2:
Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!

Offline NationalSpittoon

  • Posts: 954
Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2016, 12:18:33 PM »
There is a centered white back Sweathard on eBay.
Mark

 

anything