Author Topic: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers  (Read 4512 times)

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Offline Yoo-goo

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Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« on: March 15, 2013, 06:11:50 PM »
I as recently looking at a few wrappers of the Wacky Packages ANS 10. And I saw that you could win a free insert or something. I then saw a sentence below it saying" Potential Canadian winners will be required to first correctly answer a mathematical skill-testing question: 20 + 4 x 2 - 10 = ?"
First, why would Topps put that on when they do not even sell Wacky Packages in Canada? and Second, what purpose would this have?
Does anyone know anything about this?

Offline BumChex

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2013, 06:14:08 PM »
Topps has done this for awhile. I can't remember the reason. I think it's a law in Canada that if you enter a contest you have to be mart enough to figure out a simple math problem. Maybe the math problem is part of the contest?

Offline Fanatical_and_Sickly

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2013, 06:16:24 PM »
Topps has done this for awhile. I can't remember the reason. I think it's a law in Canada that if you enter a contest you have to be mart enough to figure out a simple math problem. Maybe the math problem is part of the contest?
by answering a question, somehow that makes it no longer gambling. which is illegal.

Offline Porkie

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 09:10:47 AM »
Truly bizarre.

So how many people are going to answer 38 instead of 18? Wonder if they would refuse entries with the wrong answer?

Love it when people try to simplify and end up making things ambiguous. Why didn't they just do addition/subtraction?

Offline sco(o)t

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 09:22:25 AM »
Truly bizarre.

So how many people are going to answer 38 instead of 18? Wonder if they would refuse entries with the wrong answer?

Love it when people try to simplify and end up making things ambiguous. Why didn't they just do addition/subtraction?

The below, from about.com web site, expands on Patrick's previous answer and also addresses you question about the complexity of the math question. Interesting the games we play to fool ourselves...

"Canadian sweepstakes law, unlike American law, requires that the third component, "winners are chosen by luck," is removed. Sponsors cannot use pure luck to determine who wins a sweepstake. There must be at least some element of skill involved.

In order remove the element of pure chance, sponsors narrow the field of potential winners by requiring a skill testing question to enter their contests. Every entrant does not have the same chance to win; only those who at least pass the skill testing question are eligible to win prizes. Of course, this is only a technicality. Most people can pass the skill testing questions without difficulty, although sponsors are required to make the test somewhat challenging.

What Constitutes a Skill-Testing Question?
The courts have agreed that a four-part mathematical test such as "155 plus 33 divided by 2 minus 12" is enough to qualify as a skill-testing question.
An easy math testing question is the minimum required to hold a legal Canadian contest or sweepstakes. Some Canadian sweepstakes go a step farther and ask a trivia question or something a bit more difficult. Others are true contests, where the entrants are judged based on their skills."

aka Scot Leibacher (no trademark)

Offline Monsterettes

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 09:33:20 AM »
Truly bizarre.

So how many people are going to answer 38 instead of 18? Wonder if they would refuse entries with the wrong answer?

Love it when people try to simplify and end up making things ambiguous. Why didn't they just do addition/subtraction?
How do you know how to group the required steps in determining the answer?  (20 + 4) x 2 - 10 = would equal 38, while 20 + (4 x 2) - 10 = would equal 18.  And I guess (20 + 4) x (2 - 10) = would equal -192  Which I can't believe is the answer they are looking for....  But then I was never good at math.  Patrick? Anyone?  Bueller?

Offline MadMike

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 09:47:46 AM »
How do you know how to group the required steps in determining the answer?  (20 + 4) x 2 - 10 = would equal 38, while 20 + (4 x 2) - 10 = would equal 18.  And I guess (20 + 4) x (2 - 10) = would equal -192  Which I can't believe is the answer they are looking for....  But then I was never good at math.  Patrick? Anyone?  Bueller?

It is Order of Operations.  Multiplication and division have higher importance than addition and subtraction in the absence of grouping symbols.

I would love for them to put the following problem:   60 divided by 10 times 2 plus 6

I put a problem like this every year on my math tests and students still get it wrong.  They are told some silly thing to remember the Order of Operations involving the acronym PEMDAS.  (Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction)

They are told to remember the sentence Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally so that they will not forget the order.  Unfortunately, the elementary teachers don't emphasize that Multiplication and Division, as well as Addition and Subtraction, happen at the same time from left to right.  Thus, they all want to multiply first instead of divide first.

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Offline Monsterettes

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2013, 11:51:07 AM »
It is Order of Operations.  Multiplication and division have higher importance than addition and subtraction in the absence of grouping symbols.

I would love for them to put the following problem:   60 divided by 10 times 2 plus 6

I put a problem like this every year on my math tests and students still get it wrong.  They are told some silly thing to remember the Order of Operations involving the acronym PEMDAS.  (Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction)

They are told to remember the sentence Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally so that they will not forget the order.  Unfortunately, the elementary teachers don't emphasize that Multiplication and Division, as well as Addition and Subtraction, happen at the same time from left to right.  Thus, they all want to multiply first instead of divide first.

I blame it all on Aunt Sally!
So to solve the problem you posed, one does the division first (since it's first in the sequence) and then the multiplication (since it's next) and then finally the addition, for an answer of 18?  But if it were 60 plus 10 times 2 divided by 6 the answer would be 63.33333?  My education was so bad I never even heard "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally"  And wait, who got to decide that multiplication and division have a higher importance than addition and subtraction?  Poor old addition, always was my favorite.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 11:52:46 AM by Monsterettes »

Offline BumChex

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 03:11:03 PM »
So to solve the problem you posed, one does the division first (since it's first in the sequence) and then the multiplication (since it's next) and then finally the addition, for an answer of 18?  But if it were 60 plus 10 times 2 divided by 6 the answer would be 63.33333?  My education was so bad I never even heard "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally"  And wait, who got to decide that multiplication and division have a higher importance than addition and subtraction?  Poor old addition, always was my favorite.  

There has to be a School House Rock about this :great:

Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2023, 12:58:43 PM »
It is Order of Operations.  Multiplication and division have higher importance than addition and subtraction in the absence of grouping symbols.

I would love for them to put the following problem:   60 divided by 10 times 2 plus 6

I put a problem like this every year on my math tests and students still get it wrong.  They are told some silly thing to remember the Order of Operations involving the acronym PEMDAS.  (Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction)

They are told to remember the sentence Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally so that they will not forget the order.  Unfortunately, the elementary teachers don't emphasize that Multiplication and Division, as well as Addition and Subtraction, happen at the same time from left to right.  Thus, they all want to multiply first instead of divide first.

I blame it all on Aunt Sally!
so this came up recently and sure as shit, Pemdas was discussed here.  I found out my kids were taught Pemdas in school and I was horrified.  Then I found out fellow parents have no idea that Pemdas stopped being mainstream thinking like 50 years ago.  Are people still using PEMDAS as opposed to left to right order of operations?
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Online drono

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2023, 04:28:51 PM »
Are people still using PEMDAS as opposed to left to right order of operations?

I've never heard of PEMDAS, but I did know about the order of operations.  The Windows calculator uses PEMDAS if you use the scientific version but left to right order if you use the standard - go figure.

Offline crackedjerk

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2023, 06:55:37 PM »
Are people still using PEMDAS as opposed to left to right order of operations?

I'm not sure I've heard of "left to right order of operations".  How does that work?

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2023, 08:17:45 PM »
I'm not sure I've heard of "left to right order of operations".  How does that work?

It works incorrectly, in general.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2023, 08:05:44 AM »
It works incorrectly, in general.
Why incorrectly?
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Offline bigtomi

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2023, 09:13:28 AM »
Why incorrectly?
Because you should always do parentheses and exponentiation first...at least, when I was taught math using a chisel and hammer. :)

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2023, 10:38:21 AM »
Maybe I misunderstood. If left to right order of operations means left to right, but while incorporating the correct order of operations, then I guess it’s the same thing.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2023, 01:25:04 PM »
Maybe I misunderstood. If left to right order of operations means left to right, but while incorporating the correct order of operations, then I guess it’s the same thing.
Left to right after parenthesis and exponentials is the option to Pemdas.  Both are competing "orders of operations". Which are you calling incorrect?  I think Pemdas is incorrect.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2023, 01:27:55 PM »
Because you should always do parentheses and exponentiation first...at least, when I was taught math using a chisel and hammer. :)
Yes of course, left to right after Parentheses and exponentials.
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Online drono

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2023, 02:00:53 PM »
The Windows calculator uses PEMDAS if you use the scientific version but left to right order if you use the standard - go figure.

Here's the question from earlier:
60 plus 10 times 2 divided by 6

In Scientific version, the Windows calculator evaluates it using PEMDAS:
doing the multiplication and division first in left to right order (which really doesn't matter for these two since (10 x 2) / 6 = 10 x (2 / 6) = 3.3333333)
60 plus 20 divided by 6
60 plus 3.3333333
then doing the addition
63.3333333

In Standard version, the Windows calculator only goes left to right:
doing the addition then multiplication then division
70 times 2 divided by 6
140 divided by 6
23.333333
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 02:04:10 PM by drono »

Offline Plastered Peanut

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2023, 07:37:31 PM »
Here's the question from earlier:
60 plus 10 times 2 divided by 6

In Scientific version, the Windows calculator evaluates it using PEMDAS:
doing the multiplication and division first in left to right order (which really doesn't matter for these two since (10 x 2) / 6 = 10 x (2 / 6) = 3.3333333)
60 plus 20 divided by 6
60 plus 3.3333333
then doing the addition
63.3333333

In Standard version, the Windows calculator only goes left to right:
doing the addition then multiplication then division
70 times 2 divided by 6
140 divided by 6
23.333333

imho, if you ONLY go left to right, as pointed out in the 2nd "standard" version, you are BZZZZZT incorrect.

is there a case, using PEMDAS, where doing division before multiplication gives a different result than the reverse?

x * y / z   =    (xy) / z   =   x (y/z).....right?

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Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2023, 06:50:36 AM »
I should clarify the two main competing "order of operations".

The main difference is PEMDAS insists that multiplication comes before division and Addition before subtraction.

So....

16 \ 4(2+2) =

PEMDAS incorrectly yields 1

"left to right" correctly yields 16

 
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2023, 07:49:37 AM »
I should clarify the two main competing "order of operations".

The main difference is PEMDAS insists that multiplication comes before division and Addition before subtraction.

So....

16 \ 4(2+2) =

PEMDAS incorrectly yields 1

"left to right" correctly yields 16

To be honest, if I were writing an expression like the above where it isn’t as clear, I would just liberally use parentheses. Much less confusing that way.

Offline crackedjerk

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2023, 07:51:08 AM »
I should clarify the two main competing "order of operations".

The main difference is PEMDAS insists that multiplication comes before division and Addition before subtraction.

So....

16 \ 4(2+2) =

PEMDAS incorrectly yields 1

"left to right" correctly yields 16

We must have been taught PEMDAS differently.  When I was taught it (and how I taught it to my students) was like this: PEM/DA/S, being very careful to teach that multiplication and division as well as addition and subtractdion are tied (with left to right being the tie-breaker).  Of course, anything can be taken incorrectly and PEMDAS (without the slashes) would indeed be incorrect.  I don't think any students relatively strong in math messed up order of operations too much.  So the little memory-helper things like PEM/DA/S were really for those who struggled.  How much did it help them?  I dunno, but it seemed to make sense to the students with whom I worked.

Alternatively, sometimes I would write it on the board like this:
Parentheses
Exponents
Multiplication/Division
Addition/Subtractdion
Was that any better?  Again, I dunno.  Visual cues can certainly be helpful and I'm not sure if writing it horizontally or vertically was more helpful to more students, but I tried both ways and hoped students could choose the visual aid that was most beneficial to them.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 07:53:34 AM by crackedjerk »

Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2023, 08:37:57 AM »
To be honest, if I were writing an expression like the above where it isn’t as clear, I would just liberally use parentheses. Much less confusing that way.
agree and such equations really have nothing to do with real life so using Pedmas isn't life altering other than teachers marking questions wrong on a test
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2023, 08:43:15 AM »
We must have been taught PEMDAS differently.  When I was taught it (and how I taught it to my students) was like this: PEM/DA/S, being very careful to teach that multiplication and division as well as addition and subtractdion are tied (with left to right being the tie-breaker).  Of course, anything can be taken incorrectly and PEMDAS (without the slashes) would indeed be incorrect.  I don't think any students relatively strong in math messed up order of operations too much.  So the little memory-helper things like PEM/DA/S were really for those who struggled.  How much did it help them?  I dunno, but it seemed to make sense to the students with whom I worked.

Alternatively, sometimes I would write it on the board like this:
Parentheses
Exponents
Multiplication/Division
Addition/Subtractdion
Was that any better?  Again, I dunno.  Visual cues can certainly be helpful and I'm not sure if writing it horizontally or vertically was more helpful to more students, but I tried both ways and hoped students could choose the visual aid that was most beneficial to them.
your synopsis is dead on, some teachers are taking PEMDAS literally with M before D.  I suspect some of those same teachers are struggling with common core math.
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Offline crackedjerk

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2023, 02:51:28 PM »
your synopsis is dead on, some teachers are taking PEMDAS literally with M before D.  I suspect some of those same teachers are struggling with common core math.

That's interesting that some teachers have taken PEMDAS so literally.  Crazy!  I haven't come across that in my career, but I believe you that some are missing the very important detail about the ties between multiplication/division and addition/subtraction.

Offline Plastered Peanut

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2023, 11:05:49 PM »
That's interesting that some teachers have taken PEMDAS so literally.  Crazy!  I haven't come across that in my career, but I believe you that some are missing the very important detail about the ties between multiplication/division and addition/subtraction.

And then you have the illiterate generation grown up on Youtube and social media who remember it as PADME'S rule (from Revenge of the Sith) and really screw up the math.

Aside anecdote:  I was in a sub shop and my purchase was 6 bucks and some change.   I gave the teenager working the register 12 bucks so I could get a fiver back.   He looked at me very pitifully, gave me back my 2 dollars, and told me that all he needed from me was the ten.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2023, 05:35:58 AM »
And then you have the illiterate generation grown up on Youtube and social media who remember it as PADME'S rule (from Revenge of the Sith) and really screw up the math.

Aside anecdote:  I was in a sub shop and my purchase was 6 bucks and some change.   I gave the teenager working the register 12 bucks so I could get a fiver back.   He looked at me very pitifully, gave me back my 2 dollars, and told me that all he needed from me was the ten.
Clearly common core math didn't stick with this teenager....
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Offline mikecho

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Re: Strange Prize fine print on all ANS Wrappers
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2023, 01:12:51 PM »
And then you have the illiterate generation grown up on Youtube and social media who remember it as PADME'S rule (from Revenge of the Sith) and really screw up the math.

Aside anecdote:  I was in a sub shop and my purchase was 6 bucks and some change.   I gave the teenager working the register 12 bucks so I could get a fiver back.   He looked at me very pitifully, gave me back my 2 dollars, and told me that all he needed from me was the ten.
That is just wrong on so many levels. How can anyone be that stupid and still manage to survive in today's world, much less in real life?