Old School Booze and Tobacco

[Plan 9]

I respect that about him as well.  

What I don't respect is someone who makes a clumsy statement, and then attacks someone else for responding honestly to that miscommunication.  Rather than just clarifying and moving on.  

He's attacking me for taking a stand against calling the forum members sheep.  

But then he's saying that's not what he meant.  Which would be great - and I was ready to accept his clarification.   But he still seems to be attacking me.   So, is he still defending the original message of calling everyone sheep for still buying Wacky Packages?  Or can he simply not stand anyone questioning him at all - and that's the reason for the violent response.   I'm having a difficult time sussing it out.   In one moment he's kidding and the very next I an "go screw myself".  It's pretty manic. 

So, yes, we should all respect a man who has opinions and isn't afraid to express them.  But here, rather than be a guy who "says what he says" and sticks by it... here he just seems to be coming off like an angry madman.  And that's nothing worthy of anyone's respect.  

My post to Brad about a poll was kidding. My post to you about taking me at my word was afterward and completely unrelated. The history is all laid out for you and yet you insist on further clarification of everything! Furthermore, I attacked you because I don't want to hear from you at all about anything. In all these years we've never gotten along and yet you keep wanting to involve yourself with me and my posts. Go debate yourself. Piss off. Drop dead. Eat shit. Take a long walk off a short pier. Is the message getting through or do I need to clarify?

[Slaytex99]

  crap, getting real in here.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ

[Jean Nutty]

         

[Jean Nutty]

Just to lighten the mood a bit           

[JasonLiebig]

My post to Brad about a poll was kidding. My post to you about taking me at my word was afterward and completely unrelated. The history is all laid out for you and yet you insist on further clarification of everything! Furthermore, I attacked you because I don't want to hear from you at all about anything. In all these years we've never gotten along and yet you keep wanting to involve yourself with me and my posts. Go debate yourself. Piss off. Drop dead. Eat shit. Take a long walk off a short pier. Is the message getting through or do I need to clarify?

This is a forum community.  Key word "community".  Maybe you believe that being a part of a community means being a sheep, but I assure you it does not always mean that.

 If you dont like getting called out when youre being an obnoxious jerk and insulting folks, maybe you should just PM whomever it is you want to share your privileged insight with.   Otherwise, expect to get called out.

Sorry if you don't like it.   But there are consequences with being so "brash" and "non-political" as you are.

[Slaytex99]

This thread got very quiet.....awkward   

Back on topic 70 to 1...How can topps not consider it?  Bring back the booze topps!   

[JasonLiebig]

Is there any use in writing to Topps to request them back in? I am not sure how effective emails to support@topps.com are, but as a cranky editorial letter writer type, I am happy to send a little note that first lauds the company for the awesomeness of the series and then asks them to consider alcohol and tobacco again for the next series.

David's answer to that post was "Absolutely! Write away! I think I'll send them this poll link as well"

So, perhaps it's time to start an organized letter/email-writing campaign?

I've tried to point out that they may have concerns and reasons that we don't see.   They might be dealing with illogical forces as well, and we may not get what we want - but sharing our enthusiasm for a Wacky product that truly captures more of the spirit of the originals can't be a bad thing. 

[bandaches]

Guess I misunderstood this:

" I'm not interested in consumer parody from Topps anymore. Or should I just shut up and keep grazing like the rest of the sheep? Here, I'll add a little smiley face in case this message got you down.   "

Sorry if I took that as directed at forum members.  

See, I took that as anyone who was "still interested in consumer parody from Topps" was "grazing like the rest of the sheep".  

I'm happy to know you didn't mean that.  

But I'll be damned if I made much of a stretch to get there.   I certainly didn't twist anything.   That's not me, fella.... that's you.

I took Mark's comments to also mean that any consumer of Topps current parody products is part of the grazing sheep.  I assumed he meant all of us should boycott Topps products due to their being so watered down and if we don't, we are sheep for not doing so.  He clarified that is is not the artists' fault for creating this watered down product, it is the fault of the Topps filter. 

I agree with Mark's sentiments towards Topps.  I have never been convinced it was due to a well defined filter, I had always attributed it to pure stupidity and laziness to drive higher quality product.  As for sheeps, I think it unwise for passionate Mark to offend passionate collectors who just want to collect wackys and have decided that although the product has become inferior, they weighed the desire to collect wackys over boycotting.  To each his own and certainly no reason for anyone to be derided for their decision.

[bandaches]

Maybe it's time for you to create a set of product parody stickers with teeth and wit, and invest a bunch of your own money in the production.  

When you're willing to risk something of your own, with the chance that you'll lose, I'll buy your fire-and-brimstone condemnation of Topps' behavior.  

Look, I want Topps to take more risks, too.  I also wanted the last Batman movie to end differently, but I get why it ended the way it did.  Because when you put most folks into the decision chair, they're going to act in their self-interest.  Typically, that means they're risk-averse.  I've been on that side of things, and I've seen it.  I feel that's a good perspective to bring to this discussion.  

I applaud the risk takers, the folks who say "fuck you" to the man.  Hell - I did that.  And I don't regret it.  

But the punchline is, I'm not an editor anymore, either.  For me, saying "fuck you" got me out of a job.  

If I had a family to support, which many people who were in my position did and do, they couldn't be so cavalier.  I COULD afford to be, at the time.  

I think you are still giving Topps too much credit for having a well thought out survival plan.  I think they are mindlessly following a blueprint that they don't even know why exists right now.  I haven't seen much from topps that suggests to me there is any mensa calliber thinking taking place in recent years.

[bandaches]

Thanks a lot ass hole. What part of this means Paul Maul understood it?
"I know what you mean, but Mark has always been passionate and sincere in his opinions, I don't think he's calling anyone a sheep just to appear hip, I think he probably really feels that way."
He's calling you out as well. You did mean it and now you're back peddling.
Why is it both you and Ern have to come on the forum to criticize people? Do you guys really have that bad of days you think it's cool to come on the forum to be so condescending to others?  We are just posting comments. No wonder Greg Grant said running a forum was hard. It's not but you have to deal with the bullies too. Really? Unreal!

Your suggestion that I come to the forum to criticize people makes you a saint eh?  I have been active again for several weeks, didn't realize I had offended anyone, perhaps you don't realize your passive aggressive behavior is disgusting?

I find people who are repeatedly(almost to the point of appearing purposefully) clueless as offensive, you find my words as offensive.  Why is it that things that offend you are terrible but things that offend others is not?  Sorry, passive aggressive behavior is not prettier than assertive aggressive behavior.

[bandaches]

My post to Brad about a poll was kidding. My post to you about taking me at my word was afterward and completely unrelated. The history is all laid out for you and yet you insist on further clarification of everything! Furthermore, I attacked you because I don't want to hear from you at all about anything. In all these years we've never gotten along and yet you keep wanting to involve yourself with me and my posts. Go debate yourself. Piss off. Drop dead. Eat shit. Take a long walk off a short pier. Is the message getting through or do I need to clarify?

I now realize your sheep comment was meant that few are complaining about Topps watered down product and you were not commenting on the collectors of the product.  Most people won't speak out, it is why the noisy get their way even when they are in the minority.  It is why our government is so successful in intruding in our lives with regulations and such that serve nobody any good but our government.

[JasonLiebig]

I think you are still giving Topps too much credit for having a well thought out survival plan.  I think they are mindlessly following a blueprint that they don't even know why exists right now.  I haven't seen much from topps that suggests to me there is any mensa calliber thinking taking place in recent years.

I may well be giving them too much credit.   No one can say for certain...it is mere speculation.

To my speculation I bring an remarkably applicable experience in a closely related industry, and I think it is a perspective that bares consideration.   

In the end, I find Topps' decision as unfortunate as the similar one I experienced while at Marvel Comics.   Nonetheless, it is rarely as simple and clear-cut as some critics would like to paint.  In some cases, there are far more parts and considerations that play into these unfortunate scenarios.   

To simply cast dispersions as "Topps is run by idiots and cowards"[not anyone's direct quote] and the like reveals a strong opinion, but also one that seems to lack a richer understanding of how these companies operate.   Though my richer understanding of how things can run inside of such a company does not grant me prescience, it should be regarded for the insight it provides.

[bandaches]

I may well be giving them too much credit.   No one can say for certain...it is mere speculation.

To my speculation I bring an remarkably applicable experience in a closely related industry, and I think it is a perspective that bares consideration.   

In the end, I find Topps' decision as unfortunate as the similar one I experienced while at Marvel Comics.   Nonetheless, it is rarely as simple and clear-cut as some critics would like to paint.  In some cases, there are far more parts and considerations that play into these unfortunate scenarios.   

To simply cast dispersions as "Topps is run by idiots and cowards"[not anyone's direct quote] and the like reveals a strong opinion, but also one that seems to lack a richer understanding of how these companies operate.   Though my richer understanding of how things can run inside of such a company does not grant me prescience, it should be regarded for the insight it provides.

I agree that your experience is relevant and your opinion has been documented.  If it turns out Topps is run by idiots and cowards, then it seems that opinion didn't lack a rich understanding of how they operate so declaring such strong opinions as ignorant seems premature. 

Does anyone recall the clueless mistake Topps made during an early ANS run?  I recall Zapata being asked about this during a roundtable and his giving an unbelievably ridiculous answer which I am sure has fueled some peoeple believing that at least as it relates to wackys, Topps is utterly clueless.  I will try to dig up the specifics on this as being so vague isn't really fair but I am sure someone here has the specifics of what I refer to.

[FourRoses]

Garbage Pail Kids can have firearms in the gags but beer and smokes is a no no for Wacky Packages?

[JasonLiebig]

I think it would be helpful to know what the reasoning is behind the ban of the booze/tobacco topics.  But I suspect we're never going to get that.  So we only have the info we have - that they're banned. 

Obviously, the membership here overwhelmingly feels that they should be a part of Old School.  And while the percentages might not be as overwhelming, I think most of us can accept that it's not reasonable to expect those topics to be a part of the ANS releases. 

I think this could easily be a case of a major buyer like Wal-Mart (and they're the most-likely candidate, due to their history of puritanical stands) making it clear that Topps' standing with them would be jeopardized if they produced "inappropriate content".  We can make a fairly quick and clear case why inclusion of said topics into the collector-focused Old School series shouldn't matter.  Because they shouldn't.  But busy executives, like busy parents, don't always make time to listen to pleas for things they've already decided they aren't interested in doing.

In the end, it would seem that we're not the ones driving the bottom line of Topps. 

Of course, Wal-Mart may NOT have drawn a moralistic line in the sand (though I know they have done so in the past) - and this may be a Topps-generated decision to avoid the chance of such a thing occurring.  Or it might be an independent position of the Topps' executives.  Maybe the CEO has kids and has the not-entirely-rational idea that if he cuts booze and tobacco out of all Wackys, his kid will never partake. 

So the question is; if we want to see those topics get brought back into Old School - and clearly 70 of us do - what's the best way we can proceed to change the situation?  I don't think there's a clear answer, because we don't even know what or who the specific stumbling block is. 

Or is this something that is out of the hands of 70 members of a Wacky Packages Collector Forum, whatever the cause?

[sco(o)t]

... Or is this something that is out of the hands of 70 members of a Wacky Packages Collector Forum, whatever the cause?

Maybe I am exhibiting too much hubris, but I would think, in terms of OLD SCHOOL series sales, the 70 members of this forum have got to be at least representative of the consumers if not a significant percentage of them. Brad alone should get 60 or 70 votes. I think the key is discovering who, within Topps, would care to know.

[JasonLiebig]

Maybe I am exhibiting too much hubris, but I would think, in terms of OLD SCHOOL series sales, the 70 members of this forum have got to be at least representative of the consumers if not a significant percentage of them. Brad alone should get 60 or 70 votes. I think the key is discovering who, within Topps, would care to know.

I don't think it's hubris at all to extrapolate that we are representative of the Old School series consumer base.  We're likely more than just representative - we must account for a good percentage of the sales of that series.

And while that may seem to be enough information, I think we need to accept that there's almost-certainly more to it than that.   And I think you're phrasing  of "... who, within Topps, would care to know." is astute.  Because my guess is, that someone already does know, but has decided that other factors are a larger priority.   Meaning that no one really cares to know how we feel on this small topic.  They just need to know that Old School is profitable.  If it isn't profitable, I'd guess the only change we'll see is; no more Old School. 

IF this is a matter of Topps trying to operate within certain guidelines set forth by a huge buyer like a Wal-Mart, we must accept that we are virtually powerless to change the product.   Boycotting Old School would only serve to do it in, and even all 70 of us added together do not amount to a flea on the beast that is a Wal-Mart.   

I think our best course of action was already laid out by someone else on this thread:  Write to Topps. 

It probably won't work, because it's easy to ignore fans and even consumers, when you're dealing with single buyers who can account for millions of dollars of sales sway.  And if that single Wal-Mart buyer says that they don't want to see booze and tobacco from Topps, they will likely not change their position. 

In spite of it possibly being a futile endeavor, writing in would seem to be the only course of action open to folks like us.  So if you feel strongly enough about it - you should write in and express your opinion. 

And at least there's a chance that it could work.  Because maybe they're just being unduly cautious and all they need is a little nudge from 70 passionate fans. 

[FourRoses]

When's the last time any one here has seen Wacky Packages sold at Walmart? Other than erasers I can't recall the last time.

[sco(o)t]

When's the last time any one here has seen Wacky Packages sold at Walmart? Other than erasers I can't recall the last time.

I bought a gravity feed box of ANS7 at Walmart when it was released. I can't speak to ANS8 or 9 as I purchased boxes from dealers for those releases.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

When's the last time any one here has seen Wacky Packages sold at Walmart? Other than erasers I can't recall the last time.

just last year with ANS 9, they carried regular retail boxes. Before that, they had ANS 8 and 7 and even had unique gravity feeds for them.

[ToadallyDude]

I still don't get their thinking. We had the booze/cigs titles aimed at us when we were kids. The Wackys are making fun of the products, not condoning them. We've talked about this before, how most of us don't think that those Wackys influenced us to start drinking/smoking. I have never touched a cig in my life, and didn't drink till I was in my late 20's.

Dude, we should start a club or something.  I don't know if it was Wackys or good parenting, but I've never smoked cigs (or anything for that matter), never did drugs, and waited to drink anything until I knew I could handle it (mid-20's), and to this day could care less if I have it or not.  So, I'm totally with you on this subject.  "Telling" kids it's bad just makes them want it more.  But letting them see it in the rebellious stickers they sit around and laugh at is a much better way to cement it in their skulls.  Gags like "Hurlburro", "Buttweiser", or "Grand Manure" would subliminally get them thinking this stuff probably tastes like Schlitz!

[FourRoses]

Today was the first time in years I saw WP's (besides erasers) in WM.

[sco(o)t]

Today was the first time in years I saw WP's (besides erasers) in WM.

Our local Walmart had the large hanging double packs but not gravity feeds. What was your store carrying?

[FourRoses]

SXT

[jaylynch]

If it's tobacco you want... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261184845197&ssPageName=ADME%3AL%3ALCA%3AUS%3A1123   Coming soon: Booze.

[BumChex]

If it's tobacco you want... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261184845197&ssPageName=ADME%3AL%3ALCA%3AUS%3A1123   Coming soon: Booze.

HaHa. OMG Jay. I was taking a drink and almost couldn't swallow it after clicking on your link. I was laughing so hard. It looks like the guy has some sex toy on his unit resting on his balls. I'm still laughing.

[jaylynch]

No... you misunderstand.  He's a sailor.  So his chin has that Popeye cleft in it.

[Slaytex99]

No... you misunderstand.  He's a sailor.  So his chin has that Popeye cleft in it.

Hmmm..

[Slaytex99]

Lol, did I say something wrong or did the thread just quiet down on its own? 

[Jean Nutty]

Lol, did I say something wrong or did the thread just quiet down on its own? 

Yeah, let's get back to smoking and drinking!


                     

[blunderbrent]