Old School Booze and Tobacco

[Smokin Joe]

   Well, I for one enjoy both Booze and Tobacco in my Wacky Packages... in fact, I'm smoking some Captain Black pipe tobacco right now. It is rolled up in a Wacky sticker that I've had soaking in Wild Turkey for 3 days!  It's a little slice of nostalgic heaven, and I'm still able to stick it anyplace... ( oh, wait, have we decide to vote some sex related products back in too?).
     

[koduck]

...have we decided to vote some sex related products back in too?.

I think vaseline is still safe to parody...

[Jean Nutty]

I think vaseline is still safe to parody...

I guess Astroglide would be pushin' it?

It has so much potential

[Plan 9]

Nobody can make a legitimate argument against Wacky Packs spoofing cigarettes and booze when kids are exposed to these products at every turn. How many booze bottles and cigarette displays will the kid pass by in Walmart looking for Wacky Packs? Protect the kids? Bullshit. The retailers have no clue either. Brand owners complain Wackies put their products in a bad light. Meanwhile crybaby parents will say cigarette Wackies somehow puts cigarettes in a good light. They can't both be right! Meanwhile the kid is probably choking on his parents cigarette smoke while they're taking away his friggin Wacky stickers. Actually they're both wrong and we can all attest to it, except for those of you know can't remember being a kid anymore. And banning these products in a series aimed at adults is stupidity squared. Topps was once the little rebel that kids loved. Now it's the establishment. Topps is wagging its finger in your adult face saying "Not for you, kiddo". How does it feel?

By the way, why was the voting closed?

[Stingline]

As a child of the 70s and growing up on Wackies and MAD Magazine, I think parody like this is what made my generation so cynical and hard to market to. When Wackies turned well-known advertising into a joke, it helped us see through some of the simplistic ploys of the marketeers. I'm not saying it made me immune to marketing, but I think there is an argument that not taking brands as sacred and inviolate is healthy and something that parody and satire encourages.

[Soremel]

I think vaseline is still safe to parody...

What about gerbils?

[BumChex]

By the way, why was the voting closed?

I had the voting go for 2 weeks. I turned it back on.

[JasonLiebig]

Nobody can make a legitimate argument against Wacky Packs spoofing cigarettes and booze when kids are exposed to these products at every turn. How many booze bottles and cigarette displays will the kid pass by in Walmart looking for Wacky Packs? Protect the kids? Bullshit. The retailers have no clue either. Brand owners complain Wackies put their products in a bad light. Meanwhile crybaby parents will say cigarette Wackies somehow puts cigarettes in a good light. They can't both be right! Meanwhile the kid is probably choking on his parents cigarette smoke while they're taking away his friggin Wacky stickers. Actually they're both wrong and we can all attest to it, except for those of you know can't remember being a kid anymore. And banning these products in a series aimed at adults is stupidity squared. Topps was once the little rebel that kids loved. Now it's the establishment. Topps is wagging its finger in your adult face saying "Not for you, kiddo". How does it feel?

By the way, why was the voting closed?

I agree with everything here (well, not so sure about Topps ever being a little rebel), but my GUESS is that this is coming from retail, and Topps is responding simply to keep the widest distribution available to it.  I say this based upon seeing something similar happen inside of Marvel Comics when I was there.

Wal-Mart creates these kinds of draconian rules.  I've seen it myself.  Perhaps Topps could thrive without selling to Wal-Mart, but they probably don't want to try.

In the 70's there simply wasn't this centralized buying, with the power to influence product that comes with it.

Doesn't mean it makes sense...but this is the reality.

[lucidjc]

Torches and pitch forks...Who's the naysayer? Flush him out! We'll drown them in booze and lock em in a smoke filled room, with no Blurine.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

I agree with everything here (well, not so sure about Topps ever being a little rebel), but my GUESS is that this is coming from retail, and Topps is responding simply to keep the widest distribution available to it.  I say this based upon seeing something similar happen inside of Marvel Comics when I was there.

Wal-Mart creates these kinds of draconian rules.  I've seen it myself.  Perhaps Topps could thrive without selling to Wal-Mart, but they probably don't want to try.

In the 70's there simply wasn't this centralized buying, with the power to influence product that comes with it.

Doesn't mean it makes sense...but this is the reality.

and is it an actual concern from retail, or is just topps shooting themselves in the foot by self censoring out of fear that someone, somewhere might possibly, in some insignificant way, take the slightest, misguided offense to some parody - and so have created their own BS code of ethics, kind of the like the idiocy of the Comic Code Authority (which finally died just a couple years ago)

[JasonLiebig]

Well, in the example I mentioned, Wal-Mart specifically threatened to pull all Marvel Comics from their shelves if we went ahead with a non-code approved horror line.

So I've seen what I'm talking about.

But certainly companies who are not hugely profitable can become skittish. 

Also a possibility.   You're less likely to gamble when your mortgage is on the line.

[jeffcaff]

Walmart sells guns but parodies of tobacco & alcohol products and explicit lyrics in music are unacceptable.  I stopped buying things from The Evil Empire years ago after they pulled the Sheryl Crow CDs from their shelves.  Target gets most of our family's business these days.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

Well, in the example I mentioned, Wal-Mart specifically threatened to pull all Marvel Comics from their shelves if we went ahead with a non-code approved horror line.

interesting.

I wonder what their stance is now, now that the code is finally dead

[JasonLiebig]

I've wondered about that a few times.  DO they carry comics?

[Plan 9]

There's no excuse for such extreme censorship of an adult product. But getting back to ANS and Walmart. I've always been a supporter of Walmart. But my view is starting to change. We're supposed to have freedom of expression. But big corporations have no regard for culture. When big corporations begin to dominate more and more market space while establishing their own highly conservative codes of censorship then we're all phucht. Capitalism is a good idea but we need to invent some sort of corporation buster law to keep business from getting to powerful and culturally influential. Or infectional...if that's a word. Walmart is culturally bankrupt and any company that compromises its integrity to fit into the Walmart empire is facing the same bankruptcy. Companies have an obligation to make money. But there's more to being a part of our culture than that. Big corporations have established the mindset that making money is the only reason to exist. Yet another legitimate reason to blame big business for the withering of American society. We think making money is the road to Heaven. Guess where the road really leads? I'm not condemning profit. I'm condemning the singular motivation for it.

Wacky Packages used to offer genuine parody. If they wren't parodying the product specifically they were commenting broadly on consumerism or some other social topic. Today it's all just trivial word twists. No meaning at all. I'm not interested in consumer parody from Topps anymore. Or should I just shut up and keep grazing like the rest of the sheep? Here, I'll add a little smiley face in case this message got you down.   

[JasonLiebig]

Wacky Packages used to offer genuine parody. If they wren't parodying the product specifically they were commenting broadly on consumerism or some other social topic. Today it's all just trivial word twists. No meaning at all. I'm not interested in consumer parody from Topps anymore. Or should I just shut up and keep grazing like the rest of the sheep? Here, I'll add a little smiley face in case this message got you down.  

You could go further and say that anyone over the age of 12 should start acting like an adult and put down the acton figures and kiddy stickers.   That used to be the target age for Wacky Packages, too.

So maybe everyone here is a little emotionally retarded.  

In addition to being sheep.

You could also say that.

But I wouldn't recommend it.

Yeah, this whole sheep thing.  It's gotten really tired at this point.   Not all independent thinkers think the same thing.  If I understand the whole gist of this sheep terminology... Well it's a bit ironic, isn't it?   There are a LOT of people shouting "you're all sheep" at each other nowadays.

That seems pretty sheepish to me.

I'm sure there were "serious" artists and humorists who dismissed the 1970's Wackys as you do now.  Seems like they're doing their job, by pissing you off.

[Paul_Maul]

I'm sure there were "serious" artists and humorists who dismissed the 1970's Wackys as you do now.  Seems like they're doing their job, by pissing you off.

I won't debate the merits of current wackys, but "pissing off" Mark hardly qualifies as doing their job. If he's pissed off because his stodgy sensibilities have been offended, bravo to the wacky artists. If he's pissed off because he thinks their work is somehow poor, tame or otherwise ineffective, no.

[JasonLiebig]

I won't debate the merits of current wackys, but "pissing off" Mark hardly qualifies as doing their job. If he's pissed off because his stodgy sensibilities have been offended, bravo to the wacky artists. If he's pissed off because he thinks their work is somehow poor, tame or otherwise ineffective, no.

Oh, I know... I just get tired of the arrogance of all the people calling each other sheep, nowadays.  Or "drinking the kool-aid".   It's annoying and it seems to be the thing to do if you think you're especially smart-er than your fellow man.  

I'd rather we have more discussions like this:  

" Companies have an obligation to make money. But there's more to being a part of our culture than that. Big corporations have established the mindset that making money is the only reason to exist. Yet another legitimate reason to blame big business for the withering of American society. We think making money is the road to Heaven. Guess where the road really leads? I'm not condemning profit. I'm condemning the singular motivation for it. "

But insulting fellow forum members for enjoying modern Wackys...or insinuating that they're not independent thinkers.  That's just fluff-and-anger, cigars-and-sadness...

[Paul_Maul]

Oh, I know... I just get tired of the arrogance of all the people calling each other sheep, nowadays.  Or "drinking the kool-aid".   It's annoying and it seems to be the thing to do if you think you're especially smart-er than your fellow man.  

I know what you mean, but Mark has always been passionate and sincere in his opinions, I don't think he's calling anyone a sheep just to appear hip, I think he probably really feels that way.

[Plan 9]

You could go further and say that anyone over the age of 12 should start acting like an adult and put down the acton figures and kiddy stickers.   That used to be the target age for Wacky Packages, too.

So maybe everyone here is a little emotionally retarded.  

In addition to being sheep.

You could also say that.

But I wouldn't recommend it.

Yeah, this whole sheep thing.  It's gotten really tired at this point.   Not all independent thinkers think the same thing.  If I understand the whole gist of this sheep terminology... Well it's a bit ironic, isn't it?   There are a LOT of people shouting "you're all sheep" at each other nowadays.

That seems pretty sheepish to me.

I'm sure there were "serious" artists and humorists who dismissed the 1970's Wackys as you do now.  Seems like they're doing their job, by pissing you off.

Only in the mind of Jason Liebig did I call anyone here sheep. The sheep are the ones who want others to keep their mouths shut and follow the flock into the slaughterhouse. Leave it to you to twist my words for the sake of nothing.

[Plan 9]

Correction. Not for nothing. So you can, as usual, re-direct the conversation into a muddy ditch of devils advocacy and hyper-analysis. Like your forum tagline used to say, "Confusing the world,one argument at a time" or something like that.

[JasonLiebig]

Only in the mind of Jason Liebig did I call anyone here sheep. The sheep are the ones who want others to keep their mouths shut and follow the flock into the slaughterhouse. Leave it to you to twist my words for the sake of nothing.

Guess I misunderstood this:

" I'm not interested in consumer parody from Topps anymore. Or should I just shut up and keep grazing like the rest of the sheep? Here, I'll add a little smiley face in case this message got you down.   "

Sorry if I took that as directed at forum members.  

See, I took that as anyone who was "still interested in consumer parody from Topps" was "grazing like the rest of the sheep".  

I'm happy to know you didn't mean that.  

But I'll be damned if I made much of a stretch to get there.   I certainly didn't twist anything.   That's not me, fella.... that's you.

[Plan 9]

I won't debate the merits of current wackys, but "pissing off" Mark hardly qualifies as doing their job. If he's pissed off because his stodgy sensibilities have been offended, bravo to the wacky artists. If he's pissed off because he thinks their work is somehow poor, tame or otherwise ineffective, no.

To be fair the the writers and artists, it's not their fault. It's the filter their gags are put through.

[JasonLiebig]

To be fair the the writers and artists, it's not their fault. It's the filter their gags are put through.

Maybe it's time for you to create a set of product parody stickers with teeth and wit, and invest a bunch of your own money in the production.  

When you're willing to risk something of your own, with the chance that you'll lose, I'll buy your fire-and-brimstone condemnation of Topps' behavior.  

Look, I want Topps to take more risks, too.  I also wanted the last Batman movie to end differently, but I get why it ended the way it did.  Because when you put most folks into the decision chair, they're going to act in their self-interest.  Typically, that means they're risk-averse.  I've been on that side of things, and I've seen it.  I feel that's a good perspective to bring to this discussion.  

I applaud the risk takers, the folks who say "fuck you" to the man.  Hell - I did that.  And I don't regret it.  

But the punchline is, I'm not an editor anymore, either.  For me, saying "fuck you" got me out of a job.  

If I had a family to support, which many people who were in my position did and do, they couldn't be so cavalier.  I COULD afford to be, at the time.  

[BumChex]

Guess I misunderstood this:

" I'm not interested in consumer parody from Topps anymore. Or should I just shut up and keep grazing like the rest of the sheep? Here, I'll add a little smiley face in case this message got you down.   "

Sorry if I took that as directed at forum members.  

See, I took that as anyone who was "still interested in consumer parody from Topps" was "grazing like the rest of the sheep".  

It sure came off that way to me. Mark may have lost interest in the new Wacky's? We are only trying to motivate Topps to produce true Old School Wacky's for the adults. We don't have any here so hopefully they will realize we will grow up soon...LOL

[Plan 9]

It sure came off that way to me. Mark may have lost interest in the new Wacky's? We are only trying to motivate Topps to produce true Old School Wacky's for the adults. We don't have any here so hopefully they will realize we will grow up soon...LOL

Let's start a new poll. How many people thought I was branding the ENTIRE FORUM as sheep?

[JasonLiebig]

Let's start a new poll. How many people thought I was branding the ENTIRE FORUM as sheep?

That seems rather pointless, especially since you're saying that it is NOT, in fact, what you meant.  Why not take you at your word, and move past your misleading statement that led to this. 

[Plan 9]

That seems rather pointless, especially since you're saying that it is NOT, in fact, what you meant.  Why not take you at your word, and move past your misleading statement that led to this. 

Holy crap, Jason. I was KIDDING!

[Plan 9]

That seems rather pointless, especially since you're saying that it is NOT, in fact, what you meant.  Why not take you at your word, and move past your misleading statement that led to this. 

Take me at my word? Ya know what? Screw you. There was nothing misleading about my statement. It clearly does not label the forum. It invites anyone who feels he is a sheep to shush me. I'm not surprised Brad misread it. Paul Maul understood it. Why couldn't you?

[JasonLiebig]

Holy crap, Jason. I was KIDDING!

Great!

[JasonLiebig]

Take me at my word? Ya know what? Screw you. There was nothing misleading about my statement. It clearly does not label the forum. It invites anyone who feels he is a sheep to shush me. I'm not surprised Brad misread it. Paul Maul understood it. Why couldn't you?

Wait, what? 

I thought you were kidding.

Now you're angry and serious. 

[JasonLiebig]

Plan 9 - Look, I thought you were characterizing everyone on the forum who still bought new Wacky Packages as "sheep". 

I thought that was A.  Pretty shitty, and B. Incorrect.

You say you didn't say that.

Great!

If someone WERE to say that, is it not okay with you to call them out as pretty shitty and incorrect?

[BumChex]

Take me at my word? Ya know what? Screw you. There was nothing misleading about my statement. It clearly does not label the forum. It invites anyone who feels he is a sheep to shush me. I'm not surprised Brad misread it. Paul Maul understood it. Why couldn't you?

Thanks a lot ass hole. What part of this means Paul Maul understood it?
"I know what you mean, but Mark has always been passionate and sincere in his opinions, I don't think he's calling anyone a sheep just to appear hip, I think he probably really feels that way."
He's calling you out as well. You did mean it and now you're back peddling.
Why is it both you and Ern have to come on the forum to criticize people? Do you guys really have that bad of days you think it's cool to come on the forum to be so condescending to others?  We are just posting comments. No wonder Greg Grant said running a forum was hard. It's not but you have to deal with the bullies too. Really? Unreal!

[Paul_Maul]

He's calling you out as well. 

Actually I wasn't "calling him out." I respect the fact that he's got opinions and isn't afraid to express them. I've always respected that. Sure, it doesn't always come off as diplomatic, but that's who he is.

[JasonLiebig]

Actually I wasn't "calling him out." I respect the fact that he's got opinions and isn't afraid to express them. I've always respected that. Sure, it doesn't always come off as diplomatic, but that's who he is.

I respect that about him as well.  

What I don't respect is someone who makes a clumsy statement, and then attacks someone else for responding honestly to that miscommunication.  Rather than just clarifying and moving on.  

He's attacking me for taking a stand against calling the forum members sheep.  

But then he's saying that's not what he meant.  Which would be great - and I was ready to accept his clarification.   But he still seems to be attacking me.   So, is he still defending the original message of calling everyone sheep for still buying Wacky Packages?  Or can he simply not stand anyone questioning him at all - and that's the reason for the violent response.   I'm having a difficult time sussing it out.   In one moment he's kidding and the very next I an "go screw myself".  It's pretty manic. 

So, yes, we should all respect a man who has opinions and isn't afraid to express them.  But here, rather than be a guy who "says what he says" and sticks by it... here he just seems to be coming off like an angry madman.  And that's nothing worthy of anyone's respect.