Author Topic: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library  (Read 92407 times)

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2012, 03:52:10 PM »
Question: Why are the different folds called 21 & 85? There are obviously not 21 nor 85 different folds on the wrappers.
as Dave mentions, it ties in with the middle two digits of the wrapper number indicating two different styles/sizes of wrappers. The 85's are noticeably smaller than the 21's.
The 85's are just large enough to wrap around the cards and then have the top and bottom folded down to seal it up.
The 21's are much larger and have the top and bottom folded down first and then the sides folded on top of them to seal it up.
The 85's can only accommodate a few cards, whereas the 21's are far roomier and very flexible in the number of cards they can hold. The 21 wrappers continued to be used for many years after the 85's disappeared.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 03:55:05 PM by Fanatical_and_Sickly »

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2012, 04:48:37 PM »
as Dave mentions, it ties in with the middle two digits of the wrapper number indicating two different styles/sizes of wrappers. The 85's are noticeably smaller than the 21's.
The 85's are just large enough to wrap around the cards and then have the top and bottom folded down to seal it up.
The 21's are much larger and have the top and bottom folded down first and then the sides folded on top of them to seal it up.
The 85's can only accommodate a few cards, whereas the 21's are far roomier and very flexible in the number of cards they can hold. The 21 wrappers continued to be used for many years after the 85's disappeared.

Great summary. The 85's were originally used for the baseball card "penny packs" which contained a single card and were sold until 1965. I believe the 15th series wackys may have been the last Topps issue to feature the 85-style wrapper.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2012, 04:51:10 PM »
Pack #12: 1973 3rd Series yellow 85-fold pack

 

Offline Alexeirex

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2012, 05:12:14 PM »
Thanks for the positive feedback! The "21" and "85" come from the Topps wrapper codes. For example, the two different 1st series packs would have wrapper codes:

0-422-21-01-3
0-422-85-01-3

The only difference is in that middle field. All the ones wrapped one way have the 21, all the ones wrapped the other way have the 85!

Thanks for the explanation - I was wondering too!
A

Offline Dr Popper

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2012, 06:36:18 AM »
Great summary. The 85's were originally used for the baseball card "penny packs" which contained a single card and were sold until 1965. I believe the 15th series wackys may have been the last Topps issue to feature the 85-style wrapper.

Did anyone ever confirm that the different folds were a result of machinery with different folding capabilities?  I am wondering if the folding machine had the ability to do both styles or if the "85" style may have been from an older machine. 
Dr Popper (aka Rob Palmer)

Offline NEZHEAD42

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2012, 09:44:32 AM »
Paul Maul & Fanatical,
 Thanks for the explanations. This is turning out to be a great tutorial.

I'm also wondering about the wrapping machinery. I am fascinated by industrial machines. I love the show "How It's Made". That someone can sit down and come up with a hulking machine that does stuff (folding, printing, turning, spinning, cutting, etc.), completely boggles my mind. You can't go down to "Industrial Machines-R-Us" and buy what you need. Someone has to dream it up and then build it. Totally cool!
"What's the point of being grown up, if you can't act childish?" - Doctor Who

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2012, 10:13:44 AM »
Pack #13: 1973 4th Series 21-fold pack

 


This pack, as well as the next one, came from the collection of Andy Herrmann. Andy was a long time collector, who I believe is now semi-retired from collecting. He collected unopened packs for years, and had a real nose for developing trading partners from whom he obtained many nice packs, several of which I was fortunate to obtain a few years ago.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2012, 10:32:06 AM »
Did anyone ever confirm that the different folds were a result of machinery with different folding capabilities?  I am wondering if the folding machine had the ability to do both styles or if the "85" style may have been from an older machine. 

I've failed repeatedly in obtaining any reliable info about this. I personally believe it would have to be two different machines.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2012, 10:58:04 AM »
Pack #14: 1973 4th Series 85-fold pack

 

Interesting note: check out the color differences between different early series yellow packs. Some of the 85-fold wrappers feature a much darker blue. It seems too stark a difference to just be an under/over-inking issue. I also never noticed how the "paste anyplace" art is totally different between the 21 and 85 fold versions. Different number of packages, different coloring.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 11:06:53 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline Dr Popper

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2012, 12:29:09 PM »
I've failed repeatedly in obtaining any reliable info about this. I personally believe it would have to be two different machines.

I would agree.  The older offline machinery tended to be built with one purpose in mind and didn't have a lot of flexibility as far as options or adjustments go.
Dr Popper (aka Rob Palmer)

Offline BumChex

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2012, 02:47:46 PM »
Pack #14: 1973 4th Series 85-fold pack



Interesting note: check out the color differences between different early series yellow packs. Some of the 85-fold wrappers feature a much darker blue. It seems too stark a difference to just be an under/over-inking issue. I also never noticed how the "paste anyplace" art is totally different between the 21 and 85 fold versions. Different number of packages, different coloring.

I wonder if Topps used a couple different printers back then?

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2012, 05:09:05 PM »
Pack #15: 1973 5th Series yellow 21-fold pack

 


I first purchased one of these at the Spring, 2002 Philly Show. Dan McKee had a partial box of them. I've since upgraded it, but every example of this pack I've seen has a very similar appearance, making me suspect that they all originate from that same box.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2012, 06:38:41 PM »
Pack #16: 1973 5th Series yellow 85-fold pack

 


Sometime around 2006, Bill Chapin (Bigmuc13) acquired 3 of these packs. He sold one to me. I was thrilled at the time because I had never seen this pack before, and honestly I don't know if I've ever seen it since. Perfect condition too!

Edit: Just looked up the details of this deal, here's what Bill said at the time: "..the guy I got these from said he found them in an old cabinet drawer at his mother-in-law's house." CLASSIC!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:56:11 PM by Paul_Maul »

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2012, 10:10:55 AM »
Here's where things get a bit complicated. Late in 1973 (during the 5th series release), Topps created a blue wrapper. The first version created was just like the previous red and yellow wrappers, and came in both 21- and 85- fold versions. Shortly thereafter, they created a new version of each which had a "wacky packages wall poster" ad included. So there are 4 versions of this blue wrapper altogether.

The blue wrappers were used for series 5,6,7 and 8. Unfortunately, though, not every version of the wrapper was used for every series. There's really no way to conclusively prove that a particular wrapper was not used for a particular series. All we can do is make an educated guess based on failure to find the pack and surrounding circumstances.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2012, 10:13:43 AM »
Pack #17: 1973 5th Series blue 21-fold pack (no ad)

 


This came straight from the bottomless Roxanne Toser vault...

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2012, 10:33:03 AM »
I am 99% certain that the 21-fold blue wrapper with the "Wall Poster" ad was NOT used for the 5th series. Both myself and Andy Herrmann had one in our collections, but both were determined to be certain fakes. Greg was never able to obtain a scan of this pack (until I unwittingly supplied him with a scan of my fake pack). While it's impossible to be sure, it's believable that the 5th series blue 21-fold output was finished before the wall poster version was produced (although the pack DOES exist in the 85-fold version, as we'll see). I'm satisfied that this pack doesn't exist.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2012, 01:10:50 PM »
Pack #18: 1973 5th Series blue 85-fold pack (no ad)

 

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2012, 01:13:49 PM »
Pack #19: 1973 5th Series blue 85-fold pack (wall poster ad)

 

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2012, 06:29:51 PM »
Pack #20: 1974 6th Series 21-fold pack (no ad)

 

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2012, 06:33:05 PM »
Pack #21: 1974 6th Series 21-fold pack (wall poster ad)

 

Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2012, 07:32:45 PM »
Pack #20: 1974 6th Series 21-fold pack (no ad)

(Image removed from quote.)  (Image removed from quote.)
what's your take on these 21-fold no ad wrappers that have the little white triangle in the K?
I consider them a legit variation of this wrapper, and they're somewhat common, so there was probably an entire wrapper production run done with that specific flaw.
I recall seeing it with 6th series packs back in the day, but I wonder if that was a local thing or if there is something more to it. Have you seen any correlation?

Offline bandaches

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2012, 08:17:31 PM »
I am 99% certain that the 21-fold blue wrapper with the "Wall Poster" ad was NOT used for the 5th series. Both myself and Andy Herrmann had one in our collections, but both were determined to be certain fakes. Greg was never able to obtain a scan of this pack (until I unwittingly supplied him with a scan of my fake pack). While it's impossible to be sure, it's believable that the 5th series blue 21-fold output was finished before the wall poster version was produced (although the pack DOES exist in the 85-fold version, as we'll see). I'm satisfied that this pack doesn't exist.
Why would someone "fake" this pack and who had enought knowledge to even create such a pack knowing it would be perceived as rare?  This seems it would narrow down the possible criminal list quite significantly.
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2012, 03:56:42 AM »
Why would someone "fake" this pack and who had enough knowledge to even create such a pack knowing it would be perceived as rare?  This seems it would narrow down the possible criminal list quite significantly.

I don't think it was necessarily faked to be rare. For whatever reason, someone just had those wrappers and those contents and faked that pack, most likely without thinking too deeply about what wrapper variation it was.

As for why someone would fake a pack that's not that thrilling, I've given up on that conundrum. But I've seen fake examples of some of the most common packs out there: 85-fold 9ths and 10ths, 6ths, 8th orange, even a 7th gumless.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2012, 03:58:49 AM »
what's your take on these 21-fold no ad wrappers that have the little white triangle in the K?
I consider them a legit variation of this wrapper, and they're somewhat common, so there was probably an entire wrapper production run done with that specific flaw.
I recall seeing it with 6th series packs back in the day, but I wonder if that was a local thing or if there is something more to it. Have you seen any correlation?


Honestly I never even noticed it before. This particular 6th series pack is actually from a full box I bought from Ernie a decade ago, so I guess all the packs have the triangle. If you notice, this pack (and all the others from this box) also has a printing error on the last "s" in "stickers." I've seen that on some other blue wrappers as well.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2012, 07:43:46 AM »
Pack #22: 1974 6th Series 85-fold pack (no ad)

 

Offline RawGoo

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2012, 07:49:31 AM »
These are great Dave, thanks for posting them!

I was wondering, with the 85 folds, do you know for certain what wrapper codes are underneath?

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2012, 07:53:41 AM »
These are great Dave, thanks for posting them!

I was wondering, with the 85 folds, do you know for certain what wrapper codes are underneath?

While you usually can't see the wrapper codes, you can be sure what they are by the nature of the wrapper. For example, the wrapper codes would be as follows for any blue pack from series 5 through 8:

21-fold no ad: 0-462-21-01-3
21-fold wall poster: 0-462-21-02-3
85-fold no ad: 0-462-85-01-3
85-fold wall poster: 0-462-85-02-3

« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 07:55:32 AM by Paul_Maul »

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2012, 12:41:00 PM »
Pack #23: 1974 6th Series 85-fold pack (wall poster ad)

 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 12:42:40 PM by Paul_Maul »

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »
The 7th series is interesting. It certainly seems to represent the peak of the popularity of the original series. This is borne out by the fact that the packs from this series that are known to exist seem to be very plentiful, which makes me think that the packs that I haven't found are likely not to exist.

I have not encountered a legitimate example of a 7th series pack with the 21-fold no-ad wrapper. I have examined several fake re-seals of this pack, which seems to have been faked in some quantity. It's possible that the no-ad 21-fold wrapper had been exhausted for series 5 and 6, and was not used for the 7th series.

Another pack that seems not to exist for the 7th series is the 85-fold with wall poster ad. This is interesting in that this wrapper was definitely used for the 5th, 6th and 8th series. I have a totally unsubstantiated theory that this wrapper was somehow replaced in the 7th series run by the gumless wrapper. In this case, the fact that it wasn't used for series 7 could explain why it was left over and was used (when no other blue wrapper was) for series 8. Only a wild theory.

While it's far from a certainty, I will believe that neither of these packs exists for the 7th series until I examine legit examples.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2012, 06:46:57 PM »
Pack #24: 1974 7th Series 21-fold pack (wall poster ad)

 

Offline bandaches

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2012, 09:59:41 PM »
I don't think it was necessarily faked to be rare. For whatever reason, someone just had those wrappers and those contents and faked that pack, most likely without thinking too deeply about what wrapper variation it was.

As for why someone would fake a pack that's not that thrilling, I've given up on that conundrum. But I've seen fake examples of some of the most common packs out there: 85-fold 9ths and 10ths, 6ths, 8th orange, even a 7th gumless.
This suggests to me that maybe there ismsome other explanation for those packs, possibly not reseals.  Any chance the packing company did seal packs with variant flap overlaps?
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2012, 04:43:12 AM »
This suggests to me that maybe there ismsome other explanation for those packs, possibly not reseals.  Any chance the packing company did seal packs with variant flap overlaps?


If you're talking about the 5ths I mentioned, no, they were 21-fold, and the flaps were in the proper order. The problem was that in both cases there was no sign of the proper roller marks because the back of the pack had been heated (probably with an iron), wiping them out. Both packs were opened, and the contents confirmed they were fake.

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2012, 11:45:34 AM »
Pack #25: 1974 7th Series 85-fold pack (no ad)

 

Offline bandaches

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2012, 11:55:24 AM »
If you're talking about the 5ths I mentioned, no, they were 21-fold, and the flaps were in the proper order. The problem was that in both cases there was no sign of the proper roller marks because the back of the pack had been heated (probably with an iron), wiping them out. Both packs were opened, and the contents confirmed they were fake.
It just defies logic to open and reseal 5th series packs since there is nothing of value in the packs.  Given that you mention there seems to be a high volume, I wonder if there is some other explanation.
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: A WP Unopened Pack Reference Library
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2012, 02:00:07 PM »
It just defies logic to open and reseal 5th series packs since there is nothing of value in the packs.  Given that you mention there seems to be a high volume, I wonder if there is some other explanation.

Let me be clearer, because I mentioned a few different things and I think they're getting mixed up.

On the 5th series packs I mentioned, there were two packs (one from my collection, one from Andy's) that I examined. Both were from the same source and both were fake.

On the 7th series 21-fold packs, I examined three different packs. Two were from the same source, the 3rd may have traced back to that source also, though I'm not sure. I didn't mean to imply there were lots and lots of them, just that someone had clearly made up more than one.

In neither case were the packs likely to have been "re-sealed" in the sense that they were legit packs that were searched. Rather, I believe they were just made up from wrappers and whatever junk was lying around.