Author Topic: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist  (Read 33292 times)

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Offline BumChex

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2012, 09:34:53 PM »
I didn't know those cards had been used for sketches before.  I recall Smokin' Joe asking people here to send him their extras for a special project, and it died - I kind of figured Topps didn't like the idea.  So, my concerns regarding Topps are apparently moot, and I will refrain from further posts on the subject, other than this last:

To me, the current auction title format is transient, whereas the sketch being on a card with a copyright and logos seems more of a problem, and may embolden "new artist sketch" card buyers to claim even more than Matt is presently claiming.  A degree or two of separation, and ignorance is bliss, and people will have plausible deniability when they list them later as official cards to get newbies to bite.  Just my opinion. 

And I know, I am getting cynical, even Wackys aren't helping..........

I think I have mentioned it before ...lol
There are collectors here that think Matt is a great guy. Now we see this crap and now we have to see who is on is side on this. I know the people that stood up for him when we were calling him a scumbag and now I don't seeing them stand up to 'now' see what this guy is doing.

Offline Swiski

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2012, 05:09:54 AM »
There must be a demand for these because people are bidding on them! They are all color sketches, so people are going to jump on them, I guess. This is going to effect the value and sales of legit sketch cards....an oversaturated market.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2012, 06:32:03 AM »
There are collectors here that think Matt is a great guy. Now we see this crap and now we have to see who is on is side on this. I know the people that stood up for him when we were calling him a scumbag and now I don't seeing them stand up to 'now' see what this guy is doing.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying in this incoherent post. However, speaking for myself, I never "stood up" for him during any of these sketch discussions. I simply warned against jumping to conclusions about exactly what he was guilty of without facts. I should think you would appreciate this approach since it's the same tack I took three years ago when you sold me a re-sealed 12th series pack. I realized at the time it was likely you were unaware it was fake, and that turned out to be the truth. I'm glad I didn't fly off the handle and call you a scumbag before I had all of the facts. That's all I was suggesting about Matt. Unfortunately it doesn't appear he was blameless in this case, but I would advocate the same measured approach toward anyone under suspicion.

 

Offline BumChex

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2012, 09:24:41 AM »
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying in this incoherent post. However, speaking for myself, I never "stood up" for him during any of these sketch discussions. I simply warned against jumping to conclusions about exactly what he was guilty of without facts. I should think you would appreciate this approach since it's the same tack I took three years ago when you sold me a re-sealed 12th series pack. I realized at the time it was likely you were unaware it was fake, and that turned out to be the truth. I'm glad I didn't fly off the handle and call you a scumbag before I had all of the facts. That's all I was suggesting about Matt. Unfortunately it doesn't appear he was blameless in this case, but I would advocate the same measured approach toward anyone under suspicion.

 
Sorry, we are vacationing at St Pete's Beach, FL and I had too many Piña colada's last night... :o HaHa

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2012, 09:49:29 AM »
Sorry, we are vacationing at St Pete's Beach, FL and I had too many Piña colada's last night... :o HaHa


No problem, I envy you....

Offline Porkie

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2012, 11:37:32 AM »
Neil: Would Topps be interested if they were pointed to the "fake sketch card" auctions?

Personally I think it is not going to do good things for the sketch cards and will just muddy the waters for new collectors -- besides the fact that what they are doing is probably illegal (violating several aspects of copyright law). If I were Topps, I wouldn't want someone doing this with cards that had my logo/copyright on them, using the term "Wacky Packages" and my characters -- it makes it look like they approve/condone them.

If I were the legit artists I would also be upset. They (generally) put in a TON of work with the sketch cards. Some yahoo cranking these out and making some $$$ on the side based on their work is really sleazy.


If he were doing this on completely blank cards with no mention of "Wacky Packages" -- and not using copyrighted characters -- then that would be fine. He is not.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2012, 12:08:44 PM »


If he were doing this on completely blank cards with no mention of "Wacky Packages" -- and not using copyrighted characters -- then that would be fine. He is not.

Please don't read this as a defense of Matt Stock. I agree with almost all objections to his "new artist" sketches that have been voiced here.

However, if we're going to object to use of "copyrighted characters," then where was all the outrage when Jay Lynch was producing such sketches for years without any Topps affiliation?

Offline Kook

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2012, 12:39:10 PM »
Neil: Would Topps be interested if they were pointed to the "fake sketch card" auctions?

Personally I think it is not going to do good things for the sketch cards and will just muddy the waters for new collectors -- besides the fact that what they are doing is probably illegal (violating several aspects of copyright law). If I were Topps, I wouldn't want someone doing this with cards that had my logo/copyright on them, using the term "Wacky Packages" and my characters -- it makes it look like they approve/condone them.

If I were the legit artists I would also be upset. They (generally) put in a TON of work with the sketch cards. Some yahoo cranking these out and making some $$$ on the side based on their work is really sleazy.

If he were doing this on completely blank cards with no mention of "Wacky Packages" -- and not using copyrighted characters -- then that would be fine. He is not.

I'd like to start by saying I'm neither for or against these "new artist" sketches. I find the concept amusing & intriguing (which is probably why this thread is so active). I don't think he is violating any copyright laws, since the characters aren't copyrighted. If they were, topps would be violating the copyrights of the products they are spoofing. I do find it ironic that the feelings many people here have regarding these wacky "new artist" sketches are probably very similar to the feelings those in the companies topps parodied in the late 60's/early 70s felt back then.

As plan9 pointed out, as long as the images are hand drawn, there are no copyright issues regarding topps art. He (Matt) also only mentions OS3 on the cards themselves. Wacky packages is a "transient" label on his auction as rawgoo pointed out previously. Since Matt purchased the ANS7 cards he is drawing on, he is free to do whatever he wants with them.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:42:28 PM by Kook »

Offline Porkie

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2012, 12:40:12 PM »
However, if we're going to object to use of "copyrighted characters," then where was all the outrage when Jay Lynch was producing such sketches for years without any Topps affiliation?

I hear what you're saying, but to me there are distinct differences:

* In Jay's case you have someone who at least was/is an official artist with the company, and who has created official sketch cards. On top of that, he's been doing work for the company since way back and helped create some of the gags/characters themselves (if I am not mistaken).

* Weren't the sketches Jay did done as completely separate art? That is, he wasn't putting out sketches on Wacky Packages stock cards and peddling them as sketch cards, right? Sketching/painting the characters (some of which he may have created for the company -- I do not know) on a different medium (e.g. on 5x7 or 6x8 cards) is really different imo. I could see where Topps might actually like this because it promotes their characters by a known/affiliated artist -- it's almost a form of advertising.

* The legit artists aren't allowed to do "sketch cards" as such except for the "return sketch cards". This pretty much says it all.


Offline Porkie

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2012, 12:46:38 PM »
... I don't think he is violating any copyright laws, since the characters aren't copyrighted. If they were, topps would be violating the copyrights of the products they are spoofing.

I'm not an expert at copyright law but I believe this is incorrect. AFAIK the Topps characters are automatically copyrighted by Topps upon creation (at least in the USA). Topps is not violating the copyrights of the products they are spoofing since they are not precisely the same (they would be if they used the precise same wording and/or precise same imagery).

Thus the Pupsi Dog belongs to Topps. "Pupsi Cola" resulted in a cease and desist letter because it was very similar to the "Pepsi Cola" brand/copyright. Whether or not it actually violated copyright law is for the courts to decide, but Topps would have incentive to withdraw the parody because it could cost them a lot of money to fight a lawsuit even if they eventually won. And there wasn't enough monetary incentive for them to do this.

Offline Kook

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2012, 12:48:10 PM »
I hear what you're saying, but to me there are distinct differences:

* In Jay's case you have someone who at least was/is an official artist with the company, and who has created official sketch cards. On top of that, he's been doing work for the company since way back and helped create some of the gags/characters themselves (if I am not mistaken).

* Weren't the sketches Jay did done as completely separate art? That is, he wasn't putting out sketches on Wacky Packages stock cards and peddling them as sketch cards, right? Sketching/painting the characters (some of which he may have created for the company -- I do not know) on a different medium (e.g. on 5x7 or 6x8 cards) is really different imo. I could see where Topps might actually like this because it promotes their characters by a known/affiliated artist -- it's almost a form of advertising.

* The legit artists aren't allowed to do "sketch cards" as such except for the "return sketch cards". This pretty much says it all.


My personal opinion of topps is that if they aren't involved in the project & making money from the wacky franchise, and someone else is directly, an affiliated artist or not, they are not happy about it.

Regarding sketch cards, the artists are absolutely able to do sketch cards of wacky characters. I have commissioned a few myself. What they are not able to do is use the wacky packages wording on the sketch card.

Offline Kook

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2012, 12:53:48 PM »
I'm not an expert at copyright law but I believe this is incorrect. AFAIK the Topps characters are automatically copyrighted by Topps upon creation (at least in the USA). Topps is not violating the copyrights of the products they are spoofing since they are not precisely the same (they would be if they used the precise same wording and/or precise same imagery).

Thus the Pupsi Dog belongs to Topps. "Pupsi Cola" resulted in a cease and desist letter because it was very similar to the "Pepsi Cola" brand/copyright. Whether or not it actually violated copyright law is for the courts to decide, but Topps would have incentive to withdraw the parody because it could cost them a lot of money to fight a lawsuit even if they eventually won. And there wasn't enough monetary incentive for them to do this.

I think this is where Plan9's comments come into play. If Matt is drawing his individual interpretation of a wacky character, and selling it, there is no issue. If he is mass producing topps images, that is a no no. He used the Andy Warhol - Campbell's soup example and I believe he is correct about this issue. Matt also doesn't use the wording wacky packages in his drawing. He only uses OS3, which is really a collector's abbreviation for the series. I don't even know if it is a common term outside the forum discussions.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:55:57 PM by Kook »

Offline sco(o)t

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2012, 01:25:37 PM »
I'd like to start by saying I'm neither for or against these "new artist" sketches. I find the concept amusing & intriguing (which is probably why this thread is so active). I don't think he is violating any copyright laws, since the characters aren't copyrighted. If they were, topps would be violating the copyrights of the products they are spoofing...

Topps, as well as satirical cartoonists, and other artists, can spoof copyrighted characters and materials under laws that govern satirical use. I suppose they always walk the thin line of making the product and/or character look different enough from the original however to avoid copyright infringement. I don't know if Topps copyrights any of their characters but
Matt could always claim he is satirizing Topps' characters. My main objection is the shady, if not down right misleading, advertising of the sketches by using Wacky Packages in the auction title, as others have mentioned here. The other thing I would think is objectional, is that his renderings are for the most part, an exact copy (minus the skill) of specific sketch cards. He did not really attempt to draw the characters in his own style. So in many cases, they come across like a poor counterfeit attempt.
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Offline Porkie

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2012, 01:35:56 PM »
I think this is where Plan9's comments come into play. If Matt is drawing his individual interpretation of a wacky character, and selling it, there is no issue. If he is mass producing topps images, that is a no no. He used the Andy Warhol - Campbell's soup example and I believe he is correct about this issue. Matt also doesn't use the wording wacky packages in his drawing. He only uses OS3, which is really a collector's abbreviation for the series. I don't even know if it is a common term outside the forum discussions.

Again, this starts to get into the nitty-gritty of Fair Use, etc. and is probably more complex than most people realize, and is probably only an issue if/when someone decides to enforce their rights.

But is this really his interpretation, or would most people deem it a direct copy of someone else's work?

Imagine, for example, someone selling their "interpretation" of Garfield, or Charlie Brown. If it is recognizably similar to the original it is no longer an interpretation. And "the 10% rule" afaik is not well understood (there is a lot of myth about it going around).

With the example of Andy Warhol, was he even violating any laws at the time? Perhaps many such laws didn't exist at that time and he was the first to do this kind of thing -- like the audio sampling that started in the late 80's and early 90's. It wasn't illegal and/or being enforced. Try to do that now and you'd be in trouble.


As for the commissioned sketch cards, my understanding is the artists are limited to doing only the characters from that particular series -- i.e. they can't explicitly use characters outside that series -- and they are doing the art on cards specifically meant for that series (return cards), which have Topps copyright information on them and are sanctioned by Topps.


Really the bottom line is whether or not people want to start the chain of events to enforce their rights (whether or not they actually exist) -- i.e. it comes down to money/effort.

Seems like Matt is doing unsanctioned knock-off's (possibly direct copies) that could affect the sketch card market. This seems very different from other examples cited.

Offline BumChex

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2012, 02:19:41 PM »
No problem, I envy you....

You won't be envious of my final bill I'm about to receive tomorrow.. LOL. Its going to be huge. So much for buying art for awhile but my kids are getting older and wanted another family vacation befor my son graduates from high school in the next couple years.
Sorry to hijack this thread.

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2012, 09:55:22 PM »
Does it look like he's just light-boxing existing sketch cards?  If so... that's even more messed up than the disingenuous lack of info that could make people think these are official.

If anyone knows are can tell if these are exact or near-exact copies of sketches, I'd be interested to see the side-by-sides.

---------------

I don't know too much about them, but in the last decade, I've seen some famous comic artists doing "cover recreations" of their own work.  Guys like John Byrne will do a classic X-Men cover that they themselves originally illustrated.   The recreation will sell for a pretty penny, though not as much as the original cover. 

But if I lightbox a John Byrne cover and sell it as a "cover recreation"....that's messed up. 
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host (currently on History Channel) who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all

Offline sco(o)t

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2012, 04:00:43 PM »
Does it look like he's just light-boxing existing sketch cards?  If so... that's even more messed up than the disingenuous lack of info that could make people think these are official.

If anyone knows are can tell if these are exact or near-exact copies of sketches, I'd be interested to see the side-by-sides.


Just my opinion but it doesn't look like he box lighted them. I would expect them to be better if that were the case. My guess is that they are drawn free-hand, but that he used a specific sketch card as the model. These are very flat with little signs of shading or perspective skills. For example, his HURTS tomato looks very one dimensional compared to the OS3 sketches. Even when he uses shading techniques, it is not done very effectively.









Given that any of us have only seen a small percentage of the entirety of OS3 sketches made, I would suspect finding the exact sketch he copied from would be somewhat difficult, especially if Matt still owns the "model" sketch.

Another reason I suspect they are hand-drawn... notice Matt doesn't appear to like to put hands on the characters, probably because they are more difficult. Eyes are another weak area. Here is his BON AMI compared to OS3 sketches...








His GULP looks very similar to this Walton sketch, down to the coffee spills and the drools...







To my eye... Matt's MR BABBLE appears most similar to Simko's sketches...




« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 05:57:42 PM by sco(o)t »
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Offline BumChex

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2012, 06:33:04 PM »
They are garbage! I sure hope no one on here bids on them.

Offline koduck

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2012, 07:44:16 PM »
Neil: Would Topps be interested if they were pointed to the "fake sketch card" auctions?


Hi Wayne,

Sorry for the delay. I'm just catching up on some of the latest posts. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to discuss the "fake sketch card" auctions on Topps behalf. But suffice it to say, they are aware of them.

So, here's my own personal opinion about the latest sketch card developments: If people continue to exploit the market with imitations, fakes, knockoffs, and/or altered sketch cards, it will undoubtedly effect each one of us adversely- the fans (who demand integrity in the wacky packages brand), the buyers (who expect to get what they paid for) and the artists (whose credibility is challenged).

I can't say what the outcome will be, but my hope is that this snowball doesn't get any bigger!

Offline Jean Nutty

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2012, 07:54:50 PM »
. . . my hope is that this snowball doesn't get any bigger!

It’s a Hopeless situation  ;D

Offline Porkie

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2012, 08:21:59 PM »
Hi Wayne,

Sorry for the delay. I'm just catching up on some of the latest posts. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to discuss the "fake sketch card" auctions on Topps behalf. But suffice it to say, they are aware of them.

So, here's my own personal opinion about the latest sketch card developments: If people continue to exploit the market with imitations, fakes, knockoffs, and/or altered sketch cards, it will undoubtedly effect each one of us adversely- the fans (who demand integrity in the wacky packages brand), the buyers (who expect to get what they paid for) and the artists (whose credibility is challenged).

I can't say what the outcome will be, but my hope is that this snowball doesn't get any bigger!


I would say the fact that they are not very good is a good thing!

Offline Bigmuc13

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Still looking for Series 17

Offline Porkie

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2012, 02:17:17 PM »
Is he holding a turkey leg in this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wacky-Packages-OS3-Color-HAWAIIAN-PUNKS-Sketch-Card-NO-RESERVE-New-Artist-/221046773564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33776a173c

It'd be nice if these were selling for $0.99 -- would be hard to justify making them for that (plus packing/shipping/fees).

Offline cmgmd

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2012, 04:42:17 PM »
The first 5 auctions ended today, ranging from $12.50 - $15.50, all won by the same collector.

Offline Fanatical_and_Sickly

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2012, 04:55:27 PM »
The first 5 auctions ended today, ranging from $12.50 - $15.50, all won by the same collector.
hmmm. all won by t***p. someone who seems to predominantly bid just on things sold by this seller.

Offline sco(o)t

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2012, 05:27:33 PM »
hmmm. all won by t***p. someone who seems to predominantly bid just on things sold by this seller.

Perhaps Matt's proud Mom wants to put them on the refrigerator.  ;)
aka Scot Leibacher (no trademark)

Offline BumChex

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2012, 09:32:52 PM »
hmmm. all won by t***p. someone who seems to predominantly bid just on things sold by this seller.

I don't get it either. These sketches are worthless. Even if you collect without worrying about future value these are completely trash. You might as well toss them when you get them. They don't even belong to a series. Anyone can draw something and try and sell it. It's total crap. I would rather have some of the stuck folders in my collection because I would know they were stuck by a kid in the 70's enjoying Wackys.

Offline Jean Nutty

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2012, 11:16:35 PM »
Perhaps Matt's proud Mom wants to put them on the refrigerator.  ;)


Next to his elementary school grades, where a couple of F’s became B’s   :great:

Have you figured out what is written in Bone Ami’s hair?

Subliminal messages hidden in sketches…  is this the next big wave?!


                 

Offline Hustler08

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2012, 03:39:05 AM »
I don't get it either. These sketches are worthless. Even if you collect without worrying about future value these are completely trash. You might as well toss them when you get them. They don't even belong to a series. Anyone can draw something and try and sell it. It's total crap. I would rather have some of the stuck folders in my collection because I would know they were stuck by a kid in the 70's enjoying Wackys.
Unless that's Topps in disguise collecting evidence??

Offline Hustler08

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2012, 05:21:01 AM »
Next to his elementary school grades, where a couple of F’s became B’s   :great:

Have you figured out what is written in Bone Ami’s hair?

Subliminal messages hidden in sketches…  is this the next big wave?!


                 (Image removed from quote.)

Yea I see it: "Joke is on you guys I am making money selling my own sketches" :] :]

Offline Bigmuc13

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2012, 06:54:35 AM »
hmmm. all won by t***p. someone who seems to predominantly bid just on things sold by this seller.

I was thinking the same thing.  Most of the auctions seem to have to bids, and the second one is always exactly $15.  Something smells funny.
Still looking for Series 17

Offline quas

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2012, 07:01:02 AM »
I was thinking the same thing.  Most of the auctions seem to have to bids, and the second one is always exactly $15.  Something smells funny.
I'll hopefully clear up the smell.  That was me bidding, and $15 was as high as I was willing to go on any of them.  Not a cent more.  Clearly no one in the Wacky world valued them much higher than that, based on the results.  And hopefully this will be the end of such sketches on ebay.  To me they are simply a novelty.
Marc

Offline Kook

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2012, 08:30:16 AM »
To me they are simply a novelty.

I agree.

Offline BumChex

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2012, 08:44:42 AM »
I'll hopefully clear up the smell.  That was me bidding, and $15 was as high as I was willing to go on any of them.  Not a cent more.  Clearly no one in the Wacky world valued them much higher than that, based on the results.  And hopefully this will be the end of such sketches on ebay.  To me they are simply a novelty.

Well said. I still don't know why you really want them but each collector has their own agenda. Maybe all the fumes from your sketch collection has altered your brain...LOL :]

Offline quas

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Re: OS3 Color Sketches - New artist
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2012, 08:51:25 AM »
Well said. I still don't know why you really want them but each collector has their own agenda. Maybe all the fumes from your sketch collection has altered your brain...LOL :]
That is a definite possibility!   :wee_hee:
Marc

 

anything