Author Topic: Wacky Packages Tees  (Read 56572 times)

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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 05:42:24 PM »

What I can't stand is that if I used images on a website for free I get 18 pages of people calling me a theif, asshole, scammer, attacker, etc etc  but this guy comes out SELLING stuff and people ask "how much?"


When you first rolled out your webpage, all of the responses were in the vein of "Cool," "Nice Site," etc. Most people (with the exception of The Gum :)) are reluctant to go into attack mode no matter what the provocation. That's the same phenomenon we initially saw here. Once someone points out that the emperor has no clothes, everyone feels comfortable jumping in with their disapproval.

For the record, while I support enforcement of the law, I wouldn't be too worked up if this guy were infringing Topps' copyrights in the absence of a legitimate licensee. The main party I'm upset for is 10again, who are paying money for the right to make these shirts and are potentially being undercut by someone who is not.

Topps never poured hours and days of blood and sweat into creating these images, Norm Saunders did. If he were the copyright holder, I'd be as outraged as I am about the lifting of Greg's work. Whether money is being made means nothing to me, it's the principle of using the fruits of someone else's substantial labor without permission that bothers me.

Offline slamjim

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2010, 05:58:25 PM »
When you first rolled out your webpage, all of the responses were in the vein of "Cool," "Nice Site," etc. Most people (with the exception of The Gum :)) are reluctant to go into attack mode no matter what the provocation. That's the same phenomenon we initially saw here.

To be fair to the people who initially said these types of things I don't think they even noticed it or put 2+2 together. I know I would not have known what Greg's images were compared to someone else's images as I have barely looked at the sticker, wrapper, box images content on his site (got the Gallery or my own collection for that).

Offline Crakola Crayons

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2010, 06:04:43 PM »
To be fair to the people who initially said these types of things I don't think they even noticed it or put 2+2 together. I know I would not have known what Greg's images were compared to someone else's images as I have barely looked at the sticker, wrapper, box images content on his site (got the Gallery or my own collection for that).

Same here, Dave.  I have my Gallery to look at for items as well as the new Wacky Packages book(s) for larger views of the classic stickers.  I don't think I've ever looked at the images on Greg's site close enough that I'd be able to pick them out of a line-up with other images.  Without some kind of watermark on them, I wouldn't have been able to tell the source.  That's why I didn't jump on the bandwagon for chastizing Jay.  Jay took Greg's images down and that's a good enough "apology" as far as I am concerned.  His actions speak well enough for the words, in my eyes.
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Offline Sue Mee

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 06:10:34 PM »
Jay took Greg's images down and that's a good enough "apology" as far as I am concerned.  His actions speak well enough for the words, in my eyes.


I agree Martin.  The images have been removed.  Time to move on.

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Offline slamjim

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 06:18:23 PM »

Topps never poured hours and days of blood and sweat into creating these images, Norm Saunders did. If he were the copyright holder, I'd be as outraged as I am about the lifting of Greg's work. Whether money is being made means nothing to me, it's the principle of using the fruits of someone else's substantial labor without permission that bothers me.

Another to be fair, Norm Saunders did some of the hours and days as did the people who wrote the gags, drew the roughs, painted the packaging, painted the lettering, did touch-ups, edited the images etc. All that is an equal part of creating these images. Norm's work is the creamy frosting on the cake though. Beyond that it's just weird that you would say that a single person's labor, hard work, investment (time and money) counts but a company's (same) doesn't. All of that can be applied to a company. I know there is no love for Topps but let's say a family run company who's family members built it from day one, did the work had their images or work used without permission. Same thing. Company or single person should not be any different. As far as Greg's site it's made up of a few components. A fan site, a forum gathering place and a business. While his intentions may be honorable in terms of having a fun place and just being a fan he has also made a big business out of "the principle of using the fruits of someone else's substantial labor without permission". Guy has two apartments now to run this business. He has a (claimed) 2700-4000 person mailing list of buyers. Even if you have some kind of dislike of businesses (don't know so I'm only speculating here) this is all the exact same thing and is very selective reasoning. (and for the record I have never cared that Greg used these images. It's Topps responsibility to enforce it if they want to).

Also, now that I think about it, just like 10 Again you have to look at Greg's business. He is not a Topps dealer. He buys stock from other dealers. The Topps dealers buy directly from Topps and Greg then undercuts them and is able to use the site he created with all these Wacky Packages images he uses to help to that end. Eh, this can go round and round.
Seems like it should all be dropped at this point rather than continually singling out people when it's pretty clear there is some shady stuff that was and is done by all of them.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 06:29:45 PM by slamjim »

Offline Sue Mee

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2010, 06:27:58 PM »
To be fair to the people who initially said these types of things I don't think they even noticed it or put 2+2 together. I know I would not have known what Greg's images were compared to someone else's images as I have barely looked at the sticker, wrapper, box images content on his site (got the Gallery or my own collection for that).

That's true for me.  I was happy to see an alternative website but I did not even look at the images, let alone compare them.  To be honest it's been ages since I looked at Greg's images because it's easier to search and look at them locally. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who downloads and saves every Wacky image they run across and views them off line. 
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Bum_and_Mabel

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2010, 06:39:21 PM »
To be fair to the people who initially said these types of things I don't think they even noticed it or put 2+2 together. I know I would not have known what Greg's images were compared to someone else's images as I have barely looked at the sticker, wrapper, box images content on his site (got the Gallery or my own collection for that).
For the record, I was criticizing the WOW website for looking so shoddy and having so many typos as soon as learned of its existence (this guy does this professionally, he says; I take that with a shaker of salt). But that's to some extent a matter of taste, so I'm not surprised that others at first said they found it a commendable effort. When I found out he'd lifted Greg's images, I, unlike some others, was not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he might just be naive. My personal response to the theft was immediate and as clear-cut as realizing I'd just accidentally drunk bleach.

To those who say, "Let it go," I would tend to agree. But then we had that epic, 2-part testimony from the guy this morning, which says within the two parts, multiple times, all he's said before, multiple times. (Luckily it came through just as I'd run out of other things to read!) Then he jumps into the illegal t-shirt fray with both feet. Sure, we should all be mature and restrained and everything about this. But the guy just keeps asking for it!

Offline slamjim

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2010, 06:45:49 PM »
For the record, I was criticizing the WOW website for looking so shoddy and having so many typos as soon as learned of its existence (this guy does this professionally, he says; I take that with a shaker of salt). But that's to some extent a matter of taste, so I'm not surprised that others at first said they found it a commendable effort. When I found out he'd lifted Greg's images, I, unlike some others, was not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he might just be naive. My personal response to the theft was immediate and as clear-cut as realizing I'd just accidentally drunk bleach.

To those who say, "Let it go," I would tend to agree. But then we had that epic, 2-part testimony from the guy this morning, which says within the two parts, multiple times, all he's said before, multiple times. (Luckily it came through just as I'd run out of other things to read!) Then he jumps into the illegal t-shirt fray with both feet. Sure, we should all be mature and restrained and everything about this. But the guy just keeps asking for it!

I was responding to the comments that were positive as if they had known anything beforehand.

True, Jay does not seem to be able to let it go after saying he will let it go but he also has a point that there is some hypocritical thinking going on here concerning T-shirt guy, Greg and hell, let's even say Topps! Just the fact they use other companies properties, alter them into a parody and them sell a product from that seems to fit into the equation. Everyone and everything about this hobby is a thief!  Good reason to not go to lengths to fight about this all day.

Bum_and_Mabel

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2010, 06:58:31 PM »
I was responding to the comments that were positive as if they had known anything beforehand.

True, Jay does not seem to be able to let it go after saying he will let it go but he also has a point that there is some hypocritical thinking going on here concerning T-shirt guy, Greg and hell, let's even say Topps! Just the fact they use other companies properties, alter them into a parody and them sell a product from that seems to fit into the equation. Everyone and everything about this hobby is a thief!  Good reason to not go to lengths to fight about this all day.
You're right. Good attitude.


So I imagine you won't object to my line of Dave Gross t-shirts?  :^)

Offline Crakola Crayons

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2010, 07:01:21 PM »
True, Jay does not seem to be able to let it go after saying he will let it go but he also has a point that there is some hypocritical thinking going on here concerning T-shirt guy, Greg and hell, let's even say Topps! Just the fact they use other companies properties, alter them into a parody and them sell a product from that seems to fit into the equation. Everyone and everything about this hobby is a thief!  Good reason to not go to lengths to fight about this all day.

Wow, that puts an interesting perspective on the entire hobby indeed.  Good analogy, Dave. :D
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Offline Gurgle

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2010, 07:16:17 PM »
To be fair to the people who initially said these types of things I don't think they even noticed it or put 2+2 together. I know I would not have known what Greg's images were compared to someone else's images as I have barely looked at the sticker, wrapper, box images content on his site (got the Gallery or my own collection for that).
No kidding. I'm annoyed by the implication that anyone who glanced at the site knew the origins of any images. I went to the site and didn't even look around because it loads funny on my browser. But once the subject was brought up, I went back and looked around.

On a separate note, I don't think Jay owes anyone here an apology. Some of us were simply concerned that he didn't realize what he did was wrong. He has since acknowledged this so the issue is over in my mind.

Offline Gurgle

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2010, 07:20:33 PM »
I was responding to the comments that were positive as if they had known anything beforehand.

True, Jay does not seem to be able to let it go after saying he will let it go but he also has a point that there is some hypocritical thinking going on here concerning T-shirt guy, Greg and hell, let's even say Topps! Just the fact they use other companies properties, alter them into a parody and them sell a product from that seems to fit into the equation. Everyone and everything about this hobby is a thief!  Good reason to not go to lengths to fight about this all day.
Not agreeing with these comparisons, but do happen to agree with the not fighting part.

Offline slamjim

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2010, 07:31:09 PM »
Not agreeing with these comparisons, but do happen to agree with the not fighting part.

I should have used an emoticon. There was a bit of sarcasm (and hyperbole) in that post.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 07:36:17 PM by slamjim »

Offline Gurgle

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »
I should have used an emoticon. There was a bit of sarcasm (and hyperbole) in that post.

Damn. I forgot to turn on my sarcasm detector.

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Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2010, 12:20:27 AM »

Topps never poured hours and days of blood and sweat into creating these images, Norm Saunders did. If he were the copyright holder, I'd be as outraged as I am about the lifting of Greg's work. Whether money is being made means nothing to me, it's the principle of using the fruits of someone else's substantial labor without permission that bothers me.

Dave already pointed this out, but it's a bit silly to have outrage over the usage of Greg's scanning and research work, but not Topps' body of work, while invoking the principle of "using the fruits of someone's labor".   

Topps has put infinitely more into Wacky Packages than Greg could ever do - EVER.   If Topps and it's many employees weren't "pouring hours and days of blood and sweat" into their work over the decades; Norm might not have had work at all in an era that his incredible style was not in high demand, Greg would not have had stickers to scan and lift images from for his site and his business, and none of us would be here having this discussion.

God forbid anyone should dismiss Greg Grant's massive importance to the history and evolution of Wacky Packages - but then to hear this casual dismissal of Topps - it's downright bizarre. 

Back on point:  Having hunted for, acquired, scanned, and shared thousands of scans of vintage items, most far more unique than many Wacky Package sticker images - I know how rough it feels when someone utilizes my images without any kind of acknowledgment.  It sucks.  That's why I don't think Jay should've used Greg's images.  It was a wrong move, and an unfortunate one, that was corrected.   

Greg has been nothing but a jerk to me.  However, if Jay stridently holds that he had every right to use Greg's scans, simply because Greg doesn't hold the copyrights - that's something I cannot agree with.  I have always respected the work that Greg has put into his site, and not just because I've done similar work, but it certainly colors my point-of-view.  Collecting and scanning doesn't equate to ownership of the scans, but the work should be respected, and the wishes of the person(s) who did it, with regards to the scans usage, should be respected as well.  Doesn't matter if Greg is your best friend or if he spits on you.


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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2010, 12:27:30 AM »
I don't think Jay owes anyone here an apology. Some of us were simply concerned that he didn't realize what he did was wrong. He has since acknowledged this so the issue is over in my mind.

(...I feel as if I owe everyone an apology for insinuating that anyone owes everyone or anyone an apology:)


Hey, if it seems to you like I insinuated something, well, hey, sorry!!!




... ;)




« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 12:42:28 AM by Bum_and_Mabel »

Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2010, 09:04:42 AM »
You are right...like I said, I apologize if I've bothered or hurt anyone. I'm a big fan of wackies and used to wear wacky shirts as a kid, frustrating not being able to find many of them around.

Whoever runs the boards, just remove this post so it doesn't cause anyone any more anger.
the Lost Wackys that greg and matt spearheaded were sold at a profit and used Topps images. You might want to check into how they got permission to do that without penalty just to be safe.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2010, 09:07:32 AM »
Jay, I'm willing to step up and say I don't support people making bootleg products.  As Dave pointed out quite well, this guy sellings unlicensed products can jeopardize not only licensed merchandise but also the very Wacky Packages parodies produced by Topps that we all love.

I made the mistake of buying a couple of bootlegged shirts, I think from a ex-forum member and the shirts were absolute crap and after a couple of washings were a mess.  I think it wise to stick to licensed products only for the legalities, ethics and potential quality.
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Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2010, 09:14:38 AM »
No kidding. I'm annoyed by the implication that anyone who glanced at the site knew the origins of any images. I went to the site and didn't even look around because it loads funny on my browser. But once the subject was brought up, I went back and looked around.


If people really didn't notice all the photos were Greg's I'll accept that. I just figured it was pretty obvious, what with images of packs and full boxes floating by from left to right on the front page, the box images having been discussed in a lengthy thread on Greg's forum just recently. But though it was obvious to me immediately they were Greg's, I admit the images are probably more familiar to me.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2010, 09:24:49 AM »
Dave already pointed this out, but it's a bit silly to have outrage over the usage of Greg's scanning and research work, but not Topps' body of work, while invoking the principle of "using the fruits of someone's labor".  

Topps has put infinitely more into Wacky Packages than Greg could ever do - EVER.   If Topps and it's many employees weren't "pouring hours and days of blood and sweat" into their work over the decades; Norm might not have had work at all in an era that his incredible style was not in high demand, Greg would not have had stickers to scan and lift images from for his site and his business, and none of us would be here having this discussion.

God forbid anyone should dismiss Greg Grant's massive importance to the history and evolution of Wacky Packages - but then to hear this casual dismissal of Topps - it's downright bizarre.  

If people don't leap to Topps' defense when someone profits off of their copyrighted images, it could be related to the company's historical record of underpaying, ripping off and exploiting their creative talent.  This is a record shared by Marvel and DC comics well into the early '80's. I think people would be much more sympathetic to a company like EC comics, who were well known for being creator-friendly during a time when few others were.

In other words: yes, Topps was responsible for creating the setting within which wackys could be produced. Beyond that, their record is pretty blemished. As for Norm getting work when his style was not in demand,
well, yes, that's technically true. The same argument was made by factory owners paying their workers pennies an hour while they made millions: "If it weren't for us, they'd have no jobs at all!" Can I assume you're OK with such exploitative labor practices?

As for comparing Greg's importance to the evolution of wackys with that of Topps, well, you're the only one doing that. Who ever said anything about Topps being unimportant? I understand there has to be some element in the conversation that allows you to belittle Greg's importance, but the topic here was why I was more upset about Greg's images being stolen than those of Topps. That had nothing to do with who was more important to the evolution of wackys.

Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2010, 09:28:19 AM »
What speaks volumes is a little thing called "double standards"  I was picked apart and downright attacked for simply using someone else's images on a not for profit level,  those SAME PEOPLE were all over this thread and yet MOST of them SAID NOTHING (you can see who is viewing threads by looking at the top)

The people who DID speak in this thread FIRST actually wanted to buy the bootlegs, "How much"  "can you make this one"  & "can you make one with two diff wackys"

It's a well known fact who is allowed and who is not allowed to sell WP stuff, but from what I see it's only wrong to post images for free, but it's ok to sell them :(

Saying sorry does not mean that person will STOP selling the shirts, right now there are 14 WP shirts on Ebay
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=wacky+packages+shirts&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Are any of them his/hers ? his images (that are now gone from this thread ALL said "card name-ebay-image" meaning he either HAS sold via ebay, is selling on ebay now OR about to sell on Ebay.

when it comes to out right breaking the law "sorry" does not mean jack shit

If Topps decided to take him to court with his admission he KNEW it was against the law to sell the shirts, do you really think "Sorry" will make the charges drop?

I'm more then livid on this matter,  there was an outright witch hunt on me (still is in a round about way) because I simply posted images for free, but selling images, that's ok?

I think my time here might just be about over :(

-Jay-
Another history lesson for you here.  matt and greg spearheaded a project called "lost wackys" where unused wacky pack images owned by Topps were produced as a card set.  It was preached that this was a collector set sold for no profit but that was a big smoke screen.  There was nearly ZERO outcry about this illegal use of topps images.  I was pretty much alone in calling this out because most others fear greg like death. 

In fact, the person who asked about double sided T shirts here(marc) was one of the first to take a Lost Wacky set and flip it on ebay for huge profits.  I missed that auction while it was running but shortly after, the brother of a forum member who was VERY CLOSE to greg did the same.  I made a public stink about it and greg blew a gasket and accused me of just trying to be a trouble maker and having un-specified alterior motives all while he was supposed to be the one curtailing the profiteering that was taking place in insuring that collectors were informed not to flip these on ebay.

After those two ebay auctions went for several hundred $, all of the sudden, the "cost" of the sets went from $75 to $225.  The guy greg bought his recent hoard of display boxes(from NJ) bought a lost wacky set for $225 and greg told him to make sure not to let me know about this.  The guy was so bewildered about this that he asked me why I wasn;t supposed to be told that sets were being sold privately for $225.  I had a pile of 2nd and 3rd hand reports of sets being sold for $225.

greg threw up a major smoke screen about how much blood, sweat and tears went into the lost wacky project(gee, have you heard that story before) and how Duane Dimock sabotaged the project by altering images that the poor quality control of the Lost wacky project failed to detect.  This somewhat succeeded in shifting focus from the illegalitiies of the extreme profits being made from this "collector" set.

Do feel free to take the specific ids of the most vocal folks relating to your image lifting and go scour the old forum for their public posts about lost wacky project.  I assure you that you won't find any of them complaining about the Lost wacky project.  The wrath of greg was not worth enfocement of ethics and legalities.

I again warn you, double standards run rampant in this hobby so you will do yourself a favor to get used to it.  Topps not going after the lost wackys profiteers seemed to set a precedence that Topps wasn't interested in protecting its copyrights so I don't blame people for making other bootlegs as the door looks like it was swung wide open!  Maybe Topps is only now shutting the door again but the double standard is already well under way and topps should get off its ass and do some cleanup about the past transgressions.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2010, 09:33:58 AM »
After doing a bit of digging I can say clearly that this person is "Rangerjoe" from Greg's board and he even showed off his home made shirts in this thread http://www.wackypackages.org/wackyforum/getmessage.php?mn=1&t=3603&mode=u&a=1&stealth=

in case you don't want to go there and look for his posts here they are:

From:   rangerjoe
To:   ronofthedead 
   Posted: Tuesday 1:23 pm, March 9, 2010   message 3603.14 in reply to 3603.10
Yeah it's pretty cool. I make wacky tees too, check out attached as an example...

http://www.wackypackages.org/wackyforum/users/rangerjoe/uploads/COMMIE-ebay-shirt.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:   rangerjoe
To:   ronofthedead 
   Posted: Friday 10:09 am, March 26, 2010   message 3603.16 in reply to 3603.15
I can make any wacky you'd guys like on the tee...let me know if you'd like to see a sample of the ones you choose.

Thanks


Note that that image was the exact same one he posted here,  he actually just hotlinked it from Greg's forum

-Jay-
Dude, RangerJoe has been selling these T-shirts for a long time.  I think Buzooka or some similar named forum member has also sold knock off T-shirts that many of us purchased.  Not a peep of concern about it because people were happy to be able to get wacky t-shirts.  Legalities and ethics are only brought up when convenient, there is no consistancy at all(well there is, you will eventually see it....).

Go back to the old forum, I believe both would sometimes stop by and mention the availability of their products. 

Contact me at bandaches@yahoo.com as I have tons of wackys for sale!  Visit my website http://www.wackypackage.com/

Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2010, 09:40:21 AM »
Jay,

All those shirts you linked to on Ebay are legal and sold second hand. The other ones there a 1970s knock-off iron-ons (copyright from some other company). You are correct that this member has sold shirts on Ebay before. He has also posted the shirts for sale on Greg's site over the years and as recently as yesterday or today posted an ad for them. I would expect Greg or his defenders will have something to say about that post considering the uproar.

I see your point in that even though the guy said that he was sorry and would not sell them anymore he also admitted they were illegal and felt that was OK because he was just doing a favor. But...because he did so so quickly I don't think your going to see everyone have to pile it on because that would then just be overkill and have to be a show to help your case. What really needs to happens from this is for people to just drop the subject with you since they are being hypocrites with others doing something questionable. You've dropped the images, given credit, admitted it up front and volunteered to make things right with the site owner but haven't given the "i'm sorry" line that a few people think you still owe. If they aren't going to drop it at this point with you then they must pile it on this guy which to me seems like BS as both of you have given enough of an explanation and repented enough for my tastes. If it happens again then fine, attack away but both of you have promised what people asked. Done.
GREAT POST!!  Obviously, we are never going to get an "I'm sorry" from greg for his being out of line in calling us all dipshits and blaming us all for Jay's website.  Remember greg's attack of me when I DID call out Lost Wackys on ebay, it was HIS job to do so and yet he made me out to be the badguy when he should have been all over these ebay auctions just like he feels we should have been all over Jay.  Does that make greg a dipshit?
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2010, 09:46:39 AM »
I hear you Dave, and I really don't want to turn this into my own soapbox for my thread / case even if it seems that way,  I just hate that this thread has been going on since the 9th or 11th both here and on Greg's forum, and it was clear as day that the shirts were knock offs even before he admitted it.

What I can't stand is that if I used images on a website for free I get 18 pages of people calling me a theif, asshole, scammer, attacker, etc etc  but this guy comes out SELLING stuff and people ask "how much?"

He did NOT say he would stop selling them, he simply said he would not MENTION THEM HERE,  that's a double slap in the face as far as I'm concerned.

I gotta walk away for a bit,  I'm more then furious here, and I just can not put into words my true feelings on this shit,  so before I totally piss everyone off here it's best for me  to just walk away and go cool off.

-Jay-
you are 100% correct, he has no plans to stop selling them so ignorance is bliss will be the final rule here.  L'et's see if Ranger Joe can make some T-shirts showing display boxes using images from greg's site.....any predictions on who the complainers will be?
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2010, 09:48:23 AM »
Jay,

I don't think there's even a question of legality of selling these bootleg tees is there?  It's pretty clear.  Which is, perhaps, why there aren't people "piling on".  It's fairly cut-and-dry, and not worthy of discussion.   There are lots of folks out there on Ebay bootlegging t-shirts, and we all clearly understand that it's illegal.  

The issue with utilizing Greg's scans as the basis for your cleaned-up images for your site is far more complicated and, apparently, worthy of debate/discussion.   It's also understandably closer to people here, because it is closer.  

It's easy to dismiss this guy because no one knows him, and it would appear he's disappeared.   But with you, it's far more different.  I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I have high hopes for your continued online efforts with Wacky Packages.  So I'm far more interested in seeing you do things the right way (even if what the "right way" is less clearly defined).  

Ironically, inditing members here due to some perceived dual-standard is the kind of thing Greg did when we were discussing the issue with his scans.  I hope that's not what you're doing, and mentioning that you're "time here might just be about over", I don't understand what you mean.  It's a loaded statement, and I'd rather not read too much into it.

I don't think anyone here "supports" this guys' bootleg tees.  It just seems SO cut-and-dry that there's no reason to add to the discussion.  What he's doing is illegal, and he's going away, never to bother us again.   If he's selling bootleg Wacky tees on Ebay, Topps should stop him.  I believe Ebay's current policies only allow the copyright holder the ability to officially make that kind of complaint.  

Undertaking the kind of effort with Wacky Packages and your website is not something I would attempt.   I'm sure doing so will present opportunities for gratification and frustration.   I look forward to seeing what you can do, and I hope you have the stamina to go the long-haul.


You'd be sorely wrong in believing this hobby and the exact recent vocal people haven't endorsed boot legged T-shirts.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2010, 10:02:09 AM »
When you first rolled out your webpage, all of the responses were in the vein of "Cool," "Nice Site," etc. Most people (with the exception of The Gum :)) are reluctant to go into attack mode no matter what the provocation. That's the same phenomenon we initially saw here. Once someone points out that the emperor has no clothes, everyone feels comfortable jumping in with their disapproval.

For the record, while I support enforcement of the law, I wouldn't be too worked up if this guy were infringing Topps' copyrights in the absence of a legitimate licensee. The main party I'm upset for is 10again, who are paying money for the right to make these shirts and are potentially being undercut by someone who is not.

Topps never poured hours and days of blood and sweat into creating these images, Norm Saunders did. If he were the copyright holder, I'd be as outraged as I am about the lifting of Greg's work. Whether money is being made means nothing to me, it's the principle of using the fruits of someone else's substantial labor without permission that bothers me.
Your characterization of the "people" here is offensive.  You are suggesting that people purposefully looked away and only piled on when the discomfort of doing so was broken.  I take personal offense to your comment and I wouldn't blame others for doing the same.

Many have said they didn't notice greg's images were lifted.  Some said they thought it was greg's images and were going to check it out soon.  greg's meltdown was within what, 48 hours of the website being made available all while people were still getting used to this being the new forum and how to navigate.  Maybe their #1 priority wasn't go to greg's website and doublecheck images.


My specific experience was that I went to Jay's site, spent like 2 minutes berusing all of the original series stuff, looked over the Old School stuff in much more detail as that was on my mind.  I would say the only thing would have jumped out to me would be the display box images and since I didn't review that page, I had little chance to even draw the conclusion that greg's images were lifted.  The only thing that stuck in the back of my mind was it seemed to me the same stuff was missing that greg was missing but I didn't give it another thought.

So....again, your assertion that the "people" here purposely looked the other way and jumped on the criticism bandwagon is offensive as you are in effect endoring greg's declaration that we are all dipshits.
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Offline bandaches

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2010, 10:06:13 AM »
No kidding. I'm annoyed by the implication that anyone who glanced at the site knew the origins of any images. I went to the site and didn't even look around because it loads funny on my browser. But once the subject was brought up, I went back and looked around.

On a separate note, I don't think Jay owes anyone here an apology. Some of us were simply concerned that he didn't realize what he did was wrong. He has since acknowledged this so the issue is over in my mind.
Paul Maul is completely out of line with his implication and it is clear many of us are taking his implication the same way so his message is clear....even though it is wrong!
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Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2010, 11:31:52 AM »
If people don't leap to Topps' defense when someone profits off of their copyrighted images, it could be related to the company's historical record of underpaying, ripping off and exploiting their creative talent.  This is a record shared by Marvel and DC comics well into the early '80's. I think people would be much more sympathetic to a company like EC comics, who were well known for being creator-friendly during a time when few others were.

In other words: yes, Topps was responsible for creating the setting within which wackys could be produced. Beyond that, their record is pretty blemished. As for Norm getting work when his style was not in demand,
well, yes, that's technically true. The same argument was made by factory owners paying their workers pennies an hour while they made millions: "If it weren't for us, they'd have no jobs at all!" Can I assume you're OK with such exploitative labor practices?

As for comparing Greg's importance to the evolution of wackys with that of Topps, well, you're the only one doing that. Who ever said anything about Topps being unimportant? I understand there has to be some element in the conversation that allows you to belittle Greg's importance, but the topic here was why I was more upset about Greg's images being stolen than those of Topps. That had nothing to do with who was more important to the evolution of wackys.

PaulMaul,

Sorry if my Greg comment was too strong for you, I don't know any other way to address these things you say.  I just get sick of hearing you seem to dismiss Topps while also seeming to canonize Greg, with regards to their "goodness" in the realm of Wacky Packages.   It provokes an equivalent reaction from me.  You're pals with Greg, but I'm not friends with Topps, so I'm trying to find some way to address this that is not distasteful to you - it's not easy. 

As an editor, I fought tooth and nail for years to get my artists and writers higher rates, going so far as to nearly argue myself out of my job with regards to Ariel Olivetti's painted cover rate.  So you don't need to make me out to be pro-exploitation, because it's bull.   I'd have to guess that I've actually fought harder and increased more artist's salaries than most members here (including you) have.  So before you continue sing-songing the tragedy of Norm Saunders' exploitation under the evil oppression of Topps, and others under Marvel and DC, how have you championed the plight of artists? 
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host (currently on History Channel) who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2010, 12:14:33 PM »
Paul Maul is completely out of line with his implication and it is clear many of us are taking his implication the same way so his message is clear....even though it is wrong!

If it's really the case that nobody noticed any of the images were Greg's, then I apologize. I do find it difficult to believe, because I (like you) merely gave the front page a cursory glance, and it was obvious to me just from that. There was a parade of Greg's images moving across the screen, tough to miss, but maybe everyone was mesmerized by the Old School sketch card images and just didn't notice anything else.

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2010, 12:22:07 PM »
PaulMaul,

Sorry if my Greg comment was too strong for you, I don't know any other way to address these things you say.  I just get sick of hearing you seem to dismiss Topps while also seeming to canonize Greg, with regards to their "goodness" in the realm of Wacky Packages.   It provokes an equivalent reaction from me.  You're pals with Greg, but I'm not friends with Topps, so I'm trying to find some way to address this that is not distasteful to you - it's not easy. 

As an editor, I fought tooth and nail for years to get my artists and writers higher rates, going so far as to nearly argue myself out of my job with regards to Ariel Olivetti's painted cover rate.  So you don't need to make me out to be pro-exploitation, because it's bull.   I'd have to guess that I've actually fought harder and increased more artist's salaries than most members here (including you) have.  So before you continue sing-songing the tragedy of Norm Saunders' exploitation under the evil oppression of Topps, and others under Marvel and DC, how have you championed the plight of artists? 

Your Greg comment is not "too strong" for me. It's just out of left field, because I never compared Greg's importance to Topps' in any way.  "Goodness in the realm of Wacky Packages" is far too non-specific to compare Topps and Greg. They are not engaged in similar endeavors, so comparing them is pointless.

Of course I'm not implying you are against creators' rights. Based on your other postings I was pretty certain the exact opposite was the case, which is why I found it odd for you to be patting Topps on the back for "giving people work" when their underhanded and exploitative tactics from that period are well known.

And aside from making copious statements over the years in support of creators' rights (specifically in the comic book field), I've done nothing else. You worked in the comic book field during a time when the big names in the industry were slipping in their piles of cash, but I'm sure the lesser talents still had to struggle, and I commend you for going to bat for them.

Offline DrSushi

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2010, 02:30:15 PM »
When you first rolled out your webpage, all of the responses were in the vein of "Cool," "Nice Site," etc. Most people (with the exception of The Gum :)) are reluctant to go into attack mode no matter what the provocation. That's the same phenomenon we initially saw here. Once someone points out that the emperor has no clothes, everyone feels comfortable jumping in with their disapproval.

Not to beat a dead horse, but since I was one of the ones who responded as you mentioned (mine was a scrolling "Wow") - I was not "reluctant to go into attack mode". I did not explore the site at that time and so saw nothing to attack. When I did go back, it was to find out which ANS series a particular image was from (to order a wall cling from LTL). I didn't notice anything specific about the ANS images that would make me think they were "borrowed" from Greg.

For the record, I agree that it was not cool for Jay to lift Greg's images without permission.

Also for the record, I'm comfortable with Jay's response to the situation.


Since we're calling for apologies, I would like to see Greg apologize to Brad for unjustly accusing Brad of banning Greg. (This is not to imply the transgression is on the same level as lifting images that took many hours to scan.)

Oh, and again for the record, I don't need an apology for being called a dipshit; because as you can see under my forum name, I am a dipshit.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 02:32:32 PM by DrSushi »

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2010, 02:32:19 PM »
Your Greg comment is not "too strong" for me. It's just out of left field, because I never compared Greg's importance to Topps' in any way.  "Goodness in the realm of Wacky Packages" is far too non-specific to compare Topps and Greg. They are not engaged in similar endeavors, so comparing them is pointless.

Of course I'm not implying you are against creators' rights. Based on your other postings I was pretty certain the exact opposite was the case, which is why I found it odd for you to be patting Topps on the back for "giving people work" when their underhanded and exploitative tactics from that period are well known.

And aside from making copious statements over the years in support of creators' rights (specifically in the comic book field), I've done nothing else. You worked in the comic book field during a time when the big names in the industry were slipping in their piles of cash, but I'm sure the lesser talents still had to struggle, and I commend you for going to bat for them.

I appreciat that, Paul.  

The thing is, I've seen both sides of it.  I've seen creators from the 70's lying about the agreements they signed, and demanding huge sums of money because a character they created was turned into a film, for instance.  

Publishers like Topps and Marvel do make millions of dollars, and the rights of creators have been increased.  But what Marvel (or Topps for that matter) bring to the table is, in so many ways, as important as what the creators do.  So while I'm gratified that creators have become more important, and better compensated, the companies should not be thrown under the bus.  

Exploitation and "fair pay" is such a broad topic, especially when you're talking about freelance artists.  By their nature, freelance artists can be as mercenary as the companies that pay them, and they typically are.   They go where the best deal is.  I don't blame companies for "getting the best deal they can".  It SUCKS, but it's what we all do as individuals.   Companies, like individuals, make mistakes - sometimes we all sacrifice long-term quality for short term price, and it comes back to bite us.  

I don't know, Kirby created all of these amazing things for Marvel and DC (and others).  Was he compensated fairly?  Maybe not by todays standards, but he did jump ship from the companies he worked for and looked for better deals.  Did he start his own publishing company?   Could he have?  

You and I can look to the amazing work that Neal Adams and others did for bringing creators together to press publishers to return original artwork.  That's good stuff.  It's important.  

But like so many great things, it may be the increased salaries for the creative folks that eventually put the nail in the coffin of published comics.   Maybe not, but it's been said that freelance salaries are the primary reason for $4 comic books (I'm not sure I believe this - but I've had it told to me).

I don't know the answer, but I do know that it's easy to point a finger at Topps or Marvel and claim wrongdoing, or exploitation, when it's not nearly so cut-and-dry.    
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host (currently on History Channel) who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all

Offline Paul_Maul

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2010, 02:58:27 PM »
The thing is, I've seen both sides of it.  I've seen creators from the 70's lying about the agreements they signed, and demanding huge sums of money because a character they created was turned into a film, for instance.  

Let's say Marv Wolfman signed over all rights to the Tomb of Dracula characters when he created them (which I assume he did based on the standard work for hire contract). When a major motion picture is made based on one of them, should Marvel really hold fast to that agreement, or would it ultimately serve their reputation better to compensate him fairly? I'm all for contracts being enforced, it just seems very exploitative to me to take advantage of starry-eyed youths thrilled just to be working in a medium they grew up loving who have absolutely no clout to get a better deal. The same thing was done to a lot of rock bands in the '60's and '70's. I guess they were all pretty naive, but it still seems exploitative.

The irony is that a lot of the young talent that broke in at DC in the early '70's got their shot because the veteran writers were pressing for better benefits, and were summarily fired by DC.
 
Exploitation and "fair pay" is such a broad topic, especially when you're talking about freelance artists.  By their nature, freelance artists can be as mercenary as the companies that pay them, and they typically are.   They go where the best deal is.  I don't blame companies for "getting the best deal they can".  It SUCKS, but it's what we all do as individuals.   Companies, like individuals, make mistakes - sometimes we all sacrifice long-term quality for short term price, and it comes back to bite us.  

It's one thing to get the best deal you can when the playing field is at least approximately level. But if economic circumstances at the time dictated that Topps could pay Norm $1 per wacky painting, should they do that? Or should they do what EC did, and thereby gain the loyalty of a lot of creators in the process? The question can be posed both as a practical question (for the employer's self-interest) and an ethical one.

I don't know, Kirby created all of these amazing things for Marvel and DC (and others).  Was he compensated fairly?

But like so many great things, it may be the increased salaries for the creative folks that eventually put the nail in the coffin of published comics.   Maybe not, but it's been said that freelance salaries are the primary reason for $4 comic books (I'm not sure I believe this - but I've had it told to me).

You make an interesting point. I agree that the quality we saw in the Silver Age of comics would probably have been untenable if the creators were paid fairly. I feel similarly about Major League baseball. The economic circumstances that prevailed in the game's golden age, while exploitative of the players, were in many ways beneficial to the product on the field. I've thought about it a lot, and I just don't see any way to reform baseball to make it both fair to the players and great for the fan.

Norm Saunders is of course the perfect example, as Topps never could have afforded to pay him what he was worth. But they could have done quite a bit better than they did.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 03:00:43 PM by Paul_Maul »

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2010, 03:17:45 PM »
Let's say Marv Wolfman signed over all rights to the Tomb of Dracula characters when he created them (which I assume he did based on the standard work for hire contract). When a major motion picture is made based on one of them, should Marvel really hold fast to that agreement, or would it ultimately serve their reputation better to compensate him fairly? I'm all for contracts being enforced, it just seems very exploitative to me to take advantage of starry-eyed youths thrilled just to be working in a medium they grew up loving who have absolutely no clout to get a better deal. The same thing was done to a lot of rock bands in the '60's and '70's. I guess they were all pretty naive, but it still seems exploitative.

The irony is that a lot of the young talent that broke in at DC in the early '70's got their shot because the veteran writers were pressing for better benefits, and were summarily fired by DC.
 
It's one thing to get the best deal you can when the playing field is at least approximately level. But if economic circumstances at the time dictated that Topps could pay Norm $1 per wacky painting, should they do that? Or should they do what EC did, and thereby gain the loyalty of a lot of creators in the process? The question can be posed both as a practical question (for the employer's self-interest) and an ethical one.

You make an interesting point. I agree that the quality we saw in the Silver Age of comics would probably have been untenable if the creators were paid fairly. I feel similarly about Major League baseball. The economic circumstances that prevailed in the game's golden age, while exploitative of the players, were in many ways beneficial to the product on the field. I've thought about it a lot, and I just don't see any way to reform baseball to make it both fair to the players and great for the fan.

Norm Saunders is of course the perfect example, as Topps never could have afforded to pay him what he deserved. But they could have done quite a bit better than they did.

It really is tough.  I think the easiest thing to agree upon is that we wish these incredibly talented individuals like Kirby, Wolfman, Saunders, and others - all men who had hands in timeless creations - that they never suffered for money.  That's a real tragedy when that happens.  When some of these creators don't have health insurance or can't pay their rent.

Hypothetically speaking:  Claiming a work-for-hire guy is entitled to millions on a creation he did 30 years ago and walked away from is one thing, but seeing that same guy hit the skids while his "creation" is raking in millions at the box office just can't be right. 

I've had the pleasure (and occassional) frustration of working with Chris Claremont, and I feel fortunate that we've developed, if not a close friendship, at least a mutual respect.  Chris didn't "create" Wolverine, so when that movie comes out, he gets squat.  But he (and Frank Miller) probably did the most real work on creating the character that was seen on the screen.   Is that justice?  Or does the guy who simply "invented" him truly deserve the cash more?  Chris didn't invent the X-Men, but boy those movies and cartoon series have plagarized just about every great story he wrote.  But that doesn't get him gauranteed cash - because he didn't "create" them.   

Sitting with Claremont a year-and-a-half-ago, talking about the trailer and discussing which of "his" characters were appearing in it was exciting, and a little sobering.  Because Chris doesn't get money when a Wolverine movie is made.  The creators of Wolverine do (I believe they fall under that umbrella of getting money under some character creation agreement - though Wolverine may have been entirely work-for-hire - not sure).  So when working for a publisher, the idea of "creation" even becomes muddled. 

Sometimes a character is just a neat little creation, and it takes the publisher's continued existence and the many creators that work on that creation later, to turn it into something "worth millions".   

As you point out, there's so much irony in all of this, and what is fair, is difficult to suss out. 
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host (currently on History Channel) who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all

Offline JasonLiebig

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Re: Wacky Packages Tees
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2010, 03:19:56 PM »
PaulMaul,

One comment on EC's practices.  I would think that's just good business, but some companies don't value loyalty the same way.  And sometimes they shouldn't.  I've always tried to be loyal, and not gone after top dollar, but maybe that's not smart.   I certainly respect companies (and people) that fall more on the loyal side, but if they choose to do business-as-usual, I can't necessarily fault them.
Jason Liebig - A swell TV host (currently on History Channel) who used to oversee Marvel Comics' X-Men - now creator and curator of WishbookWeb.com and CollectingCandy.com, a celebration of candy packaging, marketing and the people behind it all

 

anything