The Great Cloth Series Debate!

[Paul_Maul]

Back in the old days, there was a spirited debate about the details of the cloth series...when was it conceived, when was it released, etc. Some of the posts were compiled by Greg here:

http://www.wackypacks.com/stickers/cloth/cloth_debate.html

I just noticed an ebay auction that is right up the alley of this debate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-75-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Wax-Wrappers-/270730081771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08c535eb

The guy even states that he stored the wrappers in the order that they were released. He has a complete series 1-12 run of wrappers (and in every case they are wrappers that were in fact used for the series in question) -- EXCEPT that the "4th series" wrapper is a cloth wrapper!

Discuss! (If there's anyone left who cares).

[BumChex]

I remember starting to collect Wacky's around the 3rd or 4th series. I also remember buying the cloth stickers when they came out and I believe they did come out after I started collecting. If they came out before the 4th series I wouldn't have noticed them. They also could have been old store stock.
Didn't the tattoos come out about the same time or right after the cloth?

[sco(o)t]

I remember starting to collect Wacky's around the 3rd or 4th series. I also remember buying the cloth stickers when they came out and I believe they did come out after I started collecting. If they came out before the 4th series I wouldn't have noticed them. They also could have been old store stock.
Didn't the tattoos come out about the same time or right after the cloth?

My recollection is the same. I had seen Wackys around but they first appeared at our local
Mom and Pop store with Series 3 and that's when I started purchasing them. I remember seeing the cloth series
shortly afterwards. To be honest, I didn't care for them and didn't buy them at the time. I don't know
if our store had them in stock previously and just put them out then or what. I know at this particular store,
Series 3 was the first series they sold.

[Paul_Maul]

This is such a complicated subject. Does anyone recall the cloth full box that Kirk Daniel turned up? This is what the packs looked like. Note the 2nd series checklist! So I guess some kind of cloth packs were definitely released later in the game.



In case this is new to anyone, here are some other cool pics of the box:

[RawGoo]

Those are some great pics!

Unfortunately, I can't help with the discussion, as I don't recall ever even seeing the cloth packs as a kid.  The first packs I bought were Series 2, and then I found a couple of leftover Series 1 packs at a different store.  I found every other US sticker series except for 16, as well as posters (both test and regular), but never cloth packs, tattoos, or sew-on patches until I was a little older and going to card shows.  But I find the research, detective work and information really intriguing!

[slamjim]

Back in the old days, there was a spirited debate about the details of the cloth series...when was it conceived, when was it released, etc. Some of the posts were compiled by Greg here:

http://www.wackypacks.com/stickers/cloth/cloth_debate.html

I just noticed an ebay auction that is right up the alley of this debate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-75-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Wax-Wrappers-/270730081771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08c535eb

The guy even states that he stored the wrappers in the order that they were released. He has a complete series 1-12 run of wrappers (and in every case they are wrappers that were in fact used for the series in question) -- EXCEPT that the "4th series" wrapper is a cloth wrapper!

Discuss! (If there's anyone left who cares).

Dave, the monkey wrench is that we don't really know if the guy bought packs at different stores. For example, he could have picked up the cloth pack(s) at a store that for some reason still had some lying around not sold out. I walk into some Target's and have seen ANS5 packs sitting around. This type of scenario seems plausible back then as well.

[bandaches]

Dave, the monkey wrench is that we don't really know if the guy bought packs at different stores. For example, he could have picked up the cloth pack(s) at a store that for some reason still had some lying around not sold out. I walk into some Target's and have seen ANS5 packs sitting around. This type of scenario seems plausible back then as well.

Agreed.  Also, I distinctly remember getting annoyed with my local convenience store as he offered packs out of sequence.  I don't remember which series for sure but I believe we saw 7th series before seeing 6th series and for some reason 5th series was skipped altogether.  The lack of consistant distribution, the geographical nature of distribution will make it hard to put together a concrete timeline.  As for as cloths go, I never saw them as a kid.

[JasonLiebig]

In case this is new to anyone, here are some other cool pics of the box:

(Image removed from quote.)

Guys, sorry to deviate off the exact topic, but what is that insert poster?  It seems to be some kind of retailer promo for Gold Rush gum, but I'm not familiar with it.  Anyone have an idea where I can see the whole thing?  

[slamjim]

Guys, sorry to deviate off the exact topic, but what is that insert poster?  It seems to be some kind of retailer promo for Gold Rush gum, but I'm not familiar with it.  Anyone have an idea where I can see the whole thing?  

Ha! As soon as I saw that I said to myself that Jason's eyes are going to pop out!

[JasonLiebig]

Ha! As soon as I saw that I said to myself that Jason's eyes are going to pop out!

They DID pop out. 

It's not often I see vintage Gold Rush related ephemera that I'm not already familiar with.  I want to know more.

[Crazy Zoo Keeper]

Back in the old days, there was a spirited debate about the details of the cloth series...when was it conceived, when was it released, etc. Some of the posts were compiled by Greg here:

http://www.wackypacks.com/stickers/cloth/cloth_debate.html

I just noticed an ebay auction that is right up the alley of this debate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-75-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Wax-Wrappers-/270730081771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08c535eb

The guy even states that he stored the wrappers in the order that they were released. He has a complete series 1-12 run of wrappers (and in every case they are wrappers that were in fact used for the series in question) -- EXCEPT that the "4th series" wrapper is a cloth wrapper!

Discuss! (If there's anyone left who cares).

Wow, what a blast from the past!! Thanks for digging this up, Dave.  I gave up the ghost when guys recalled finding the cloth stickers at the same time as the first series, but I always thought the code information was overwhelmingly supportive of the approximately fourth series time frame theory. 

This auction is pretty compelling, but it is still not the smoking gun I was hoping for when I wrote: "Unfortunately there are still missing facts that preclude a definitive explanation. But, I am confident over time they will unfold. Until then, it makes sense to analyze the facts we do have and keep an open dialogue."

This is the incentive I needed to follow up on another lead that may bring us even closer to the answer. 

As excited as I have been for Old School 2, this kind of stuff really gets my blood flowing.  Thanks for keeping the OS discussion alive.

[dth1971]

Late 1972 prior to the 1973-1977 Wacky Packages sticker craze.

[Paul_Maul]

Late 1972 prior to the 1973-1977 Wacky Packages sticker craze.

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Dr Popper]

[/quote]

Dave, what are your thoughts on Rusty's theory?..................

http://www.wacky-packages.net/

[Paul_Maul]

Dave, what are your thoughts on Rusty's theory?..................

http://www.wacky-packages.net/

I think some of his ideas have merit.

One thing I vehemently disagree with is his idea that the code numbers are "reset" every year. Patrick Z. explained years ago why this makes no sense, but here it is again:

Here are the codes for each if the 16 wacky series, which occur over a span of 4 years:

Series 1: 422
Series 2: 427
Series 3: 436
Series 4: 454
Series 5: 460
Series 6: 462
Series 7: 463
Series 8: 465
Series 9: 407
Series 10: 477
Series 11: 478
Series 12: 476
Series 13: 483
Series 14: 489
Series 15: 490
Series 16: 495

Obviously, these codes are largely increasing, and show no sign of being reset ever. The only two anomalies are series 9 and 12. It's clear to me that coding series 9 "407" was an error. All you have to do is examine the code on the display box sticker.  Starting with series 7 (series 1-6 stickers were reused from Topps sports card sets), this number matched the overall production code for the series. The code on the 9th box sticker is "473", and that should have been the code for all the 9th series products. The 407 was just a mistake.

Rusty's explanation for the series 12 anomaly is more likely correct.

[Tic_Toc]

Back in the old days, there was a spirited debate about the details of the cloth series...when was it conceived, when was it released, etc. Some of the posts were compiled by Greg here:

http://www.wackypacks.com/stickers/cloth/cloth_debate.html

I just noticed an ebay auction that is right up the alley of this debate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-75-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Wax-Wrappers-/270730081771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08c535eb

The guy even states that he stored the wrappers in the order that they were released. He has a complete series 1-12 run of wrappers (and in every case they are wrappers that were in fact used for the series in question) -- EXCEPT that the "4th series" wrapper is a cloth wrapper!

Discuss! (If there's anyone left who cares).

For what it's worth, I started buying packs at the tail end of series 4.  And I do recall that I bought a pack (I think at a Woolworth) at that time that had Cloth stickers in it.  I don't think it was a cloth box, because I remember being surprised at getting a Grave Train and Skimpy in the cloth material.  When I started collecting again back around 2003, I went back through all my old checklists to see if I had a cloth checklist.  I didn't have one, and I rarely threw out any checklists as a kid, so I'm inclined to think they were placed into a non-cloth pack with a regular checklist of some kind.  Not sure if that helps any, but it makes me think that Topps still had cloth stickers around the plants when series 4 was shipping.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

I just noticed an ebay auction that is right up the alley of this debate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1973-75-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Wax-Wrappers-/270730081771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08c535eb

The guy even states that he stored the wrappers in the order that they were released. He has a complete series 1-12 run of wrappers (and in every case they are wrappers that were in fact used for the series in question) -- EXCEPT that the "4th series" wrapper is a cloth wrapper!

Discuss! (If there's anyone left who cares).

another auction recently from the same guy, with the same set of 12 wrappers in 'chronological order'

eBay auction: #271358791075

it's been quite awhile since I've seen a cloth wrapper on ebay. this may be the first I've noticed since this auction almost 3 years ago

[koduck]

Dave, what are your thoughts on Rusty's theory?..................

http://www.wacky-packages.net/

Hey Rob, I just noticed this thread's been revived so I thought I'd give a belated comment regarding your question.

Rusty's theory seems to have some weight. However, I'd like to add this: I found cloth series stickers in the fall of 1972 at a local JC Penny store. This was in northern New Jersey, so they must have produced them earlier (possibly as a regional test set?) than is typically assumed. Just some food for thought...

[Paul_Maul]

Were they in a pack with the usual cloth series wrapper? I can't see how it's possible since that wrapper indicates 1973 as the year of manufacture.

[koduck]

Were they in a pack with the usual cloth series wrapper? I can't see how it's possible since that wrapper indicates 1973 as the year of manufacture.

I don't recall if the packs were the regular variety or cloth. I do remember they were available for several months before being replaced with the 2nd series sticker packs. As for the production date, it's possible that they were manufactured earlier with the idea of releasing them at a later date (not an uncommon practice).

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

Were they in a pack with the usual cloth series wrapper? I can't see how it's possible since that wrapper indicates 1973 as the year of manufacture.

there's also the Cloth Series Proof sheet that was dated 11/15/72 that Topps auctioned. That's really late in the year.

[Paul_Maul]

I don't recall if the packs were the regular variety or cloth. I do remember they were available for several months before being replaced with the 2nd series sticker packs. As for the production date, it's possible that they were manufactured earlier with the idea of releasing them at a later date (not an uncommon practice).

I was under the impression that the regular 1st series came out in March '73 with the 2nd series released in June. Are you saying you bought the cloths between these two?

[koduck]

I was under the impression that the regular 1st series came out in March '73 with the 2nd series released in June. Are you saying you bought the cloths between these two?

Nope. To clarify, I bought the cloth stickers in the fall  of '72 and they later replaced them with series 2 stickers. In other words, they never carried the regular 1st series stickers.

[Fanatical_and_Sickly]

Rusty's theory seems to have some weight. However, I'd like to add this: I found cloth series stickers in the fall of 1972 at a local JC Penny store. This was in northern New Jersey, so they must have produced them earlier (possibly as a regional test set?) than is typically assumed. Just some food for thought...

Just to set the record straight in this thread, the core of that theory is not Rusty's.
While the thoughts on the project codes and the photoshopped boxes are all him, the idea of an unnumbered die-cut test set with checklists (that were eventually used in the cloth packs), is mine.
Rusty has a tendency to appropriate information without crediting

[koduck]

Just to set the record straight in this thread, the core of that theory is not Rusty's.
While the thoughts on the project codes and the photoshopped boxes are all him, the idea of an unnumbered die-cut test set with checklists (that were eventually used in the cloth packs), is mine.
Rusty has a tendency to appropriate information without crediting