Wacky Packages Forum
Wacky Packages Discussion => General Wacky Packages Discussion => Topic started by: jleonard1967 on March 29, 2022, 03:07:41 PM
-
Its a shame, This auction was up for a week and I was out bid at the last second. I bid 21.00 and it went for I think 21.50 COMC was selling it. Low and behold the exact card is up on COMC for a buy it now of 56.00. This one reeks of shill bidding. At least wait a week (not the next day) to repost it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234472704057?hash=item3697a98839:g:VaQAAOSwb4JiNP2o
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234485759878?hash=item369870bf86:g:SngAAOSwd8piQpZd
-
Its a shame, This auction was up for a week and I was out bid at the last second. I bid 21.00 and it went for I think 21.50 COMC was selling it. Low and behold the exact card is up on COMC for a buy it now of 56.00. This one reeks of shill bidding. At least wait a week (not the next day) to repost it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234472704057?hash=item3697a98839:g:VaQAAOSwb4JiNP2o
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234485759878?hash=item369870bf86:g:SngAAOSwd8piQpZd
So, the guy never sold it and did NOT send you a second chance? Can that be reported to eBay fraud center? You should have the option of buying it for what your bid was.
-
To be fair, this is not proof of shilling. COMC is a consignment service, so it’s possible whoever won the auction just put it back up on COMC. That’s exactly the problem with consignment selling, it places a barrier of anonymity between the actual seller and the buyer that is difficult to penetrate.
-
Dave,
That is exactly what they said as I did write them. My response was SUUURRRE!
-
I see people attempting to flip cards all the time. Morally bankrupt? Yes. Evidence of shill bidding? Not necessarily. Hotel? Trivago.
-
To be fair, this is not proof of shilling. COMC is a consignment service, so it’s possible whoever won the auction just put it back up on COMC. That’s exactly the problem with consignment selling, it places a barrier of anonymity between the actual seller and the buyer that is difficult to penetrate.
So lots of us are math guys....what are the odds the winner of the auction happens to know COMC is a consignment operation and immediately decided to relist the same auction that had limited interest for a higher price? In the realm of statistical liklihood and common sense, I give it 1% vs the 99% chance that COMC seller shilled it themselves and told COMC to relist it.
-
I see people attempting to flip cards all the time. Morally bankrupt? Yes. Evidence of shill bidding? Not necessarily. Hotel? Trivago.
Of course this is "evidence" of shill bidding, is it iron clad proof, no, iron clad proof of shill bidding is tough but in the realm if probability, this is well over 90%.
-
Ernie,
You saw the same picture I did. There is a chance that it is a normal "buy and flip" by another person. However in the time span of less than 12 hours to have all the info available and have it resisted on their site? Highly unlikely? I did get no response when I reresuponded to the email that I agree that it could happen but would you check if it is the same person and let me know.
-
That probably is the most likely scenario, but there are eBay sellers who do this all the time. They constantly place conservative bids on tons of auctions hoping to pick up a few bargains which they immediately list at a much higher buy it now.
-
Ernie,
You saw the same picture I did. There is a chance that it is a normal "buy and flip" by another person. However in the time span of less than 12 hours to have all the info available and have it resisted on their site? Highly unlikely? I did get no response when I reresuponded to the email that I agree that it could happen but would you check if it is the same person and let me know.
they copied and pasted their shill bidding guidelines for me. I told them we all know shill bidding is typically not done overtly with the same id so a posted policy doesn't mean it isn't happening.
-
That probably is the most likely scenario, but there are eBay sellers who do this all the time. They constantly place conservative bids on tons of auctions hoping to pick up a few bargains which they immediately list at a much higher buy it now.
who then use a consignor to flip their items thus cutting into the marginal profit that are already slated to make thinking the market will suddenly value their item much higher the next day?
-
who then use a consignor to flip their items thus cutting into the marginal profit that are already slated to make thinking the market will suddenly value their item much higher the next day?
I’m not arguing that it is likely a shill Ernie. But there are absolutely sellers who do this. As you know, the “market” depends on who is interested in the card that day. They leave the higher buy-it-now up indefinitely with the hope that someone who sees and wants the card that day will be willing to pay more.
I have enabled sellers like this a few times. I bid $86 for a 1973 BB card I wanted, which I knew was a little below market, but I hoped for a good deal. Another bidder outbid me and won it for $87, relisting it immediately for $119. It sat for months taunting me with its presence, and after a few weeks of not being able to find any cards I wanted I finally said what the hell and bought it.
Look at the listings of eBay seller anthjos. This is basically all he does, buy cards cheaply in auctions (probably winning the auctions only 5% of the time), and relist them $10 higher on buy it now with crappy pictures. It must work to some degree because he’s been doing it for years.
-
The only problem with this scenario is a 1991 graded Wacky is really only worth 20 bucks (PSA 10) For someone to try and get 56 dollars is just gouging people. As I said it very well could be the scenario that was suggested. However I, on this one am leaning towards someone who didnt want to let his item go for 21 bucks even though that is all it is really worth.
-
I see people attempting to flip cards all the time. Morally bankrupt? Yes. Evidence of shill bidding? Not necessarily. Hotel? Trivago.
Why do you think "flipping" cards is morally bankrupt? I buy and resell and repackage all kinds of things all the time. Once a buyer has purchased something at an agreed price, he or she can do whatever they want with it. That's why you buy it. If the seller care's about what happens to it after it is sold, then don't sell it.
-
On this one it is suspect that the seller bid up the price and relisted it back as a buy it now. I truly do not believe that someone bought it and relisted it within 12 hours
-
On this one it is suspect that the seller bid up the price and relisted it back as a buy it now. I truly do not believe that someone bought it and relisted it within 12 hours
And the consignor just doesn't care.
-
Why do you think "flipping" cards is morally bankrupt? I buy and resell and repackage all kinds of things all the time. Once a buyer has purchased something at an agreed price, he or she can do whatever they want with it. That's why you buy it. If the seller care's about what happens to it after it is sold, then don't sell it.
Okay, maybe not morally bankrupt. But I’ve always thought it’s quite shitty to purchase something that someone else clearly wants for their collection and sell it at a higher price - knowingly luring them in.
-
And the consignor just doesn't care.
I channeled my inner Ernie and wrote COMC. They claimed that, just as Dave said people buy and sell that quick on their site. I then asked "well ok I get that but would you check if they were the same person?" Nothing but crickets from them.
-
Thanks Heavens for the forum, which provides collectors who sell and trade at reasonable prices, instead of the awful E-Bay. Of course, for you high-end collectors, there is going to be some stuff at the top end which can only be had on e-bay...thus the price gouging/shill bidding/flipping that goes on. Not to start a macroeconomics discussion, but do people think this behavior is any different (or worse) than being gouged at the gas pumps or grocery stores? You know, the way every corporation is doing it right now......
-
Thanks Heavens for the forum, which provides collectors who sell and trade at reasonable prices, instead of the awful E-Bay. Of course, for you high-end collectors, there is going to be some stuff at the top end which can only be had on e-bay...thus the price gouging/shill bidding/flipping that goes on. Not to start a macroeconomics discussion, but do people think this behavior is any different (or worse) than being gouged at the gas pumps or grocery stores? You know, the way every corporation is doing it right now......
I personally am fine with it as long as it is upfront and not hidden or done by deceit.
-
I’ve always thought it’s quite shitty to purchase something that someone else clearly wants [for their collection] and sell it at a higher price - knowingly luring them in.
Hmmmm...this sounds suspiciously like free enterprise to me, not shitterprise.
-
Hmmmm...this sounds suspiciously like free enterprise to me, not shitterprise.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t be allowed; I am just saying I don’t support it.
-
Hmmmm...this sounds suspiciously like free enterprise to me, not shitterprise.
I agree. Basically saying that "someone wants it in their collection" means I want to get it at the price I want and won't pay a higher price because I don't want to. Market dictates price, everywhere. I always say anything is exactly worth the price if more than one person is willing to pay that price.
-
I’m not saying you shouldn’t be allowed; I am just saying I don’t support it.
I still don't understand where you are coming from. Let's take a car for example. One goes up for auction and I win it at a price I am willing to pay. A little while later I try to sell it to see if there is more demand than when I bought it. If there is, I sell it for the price that I can get. That is free enterprise. It is basically what the stock market is founded on. So you think it is wrong for people to buy stock at a low price then hope it goes up and if it does then you can sell it? My retirement literally is banking on that. Do you not support that as well? There is risk in any purchase as well. There is no guarantee that values will increase.
-
Why are we comparing the stock market to trading cards? Your situation is also not the same as previously stated in the thread. The buyer, whether it was the seller or not, directly put the item for sale. The market did not change. He is screwing the other buyers. Not sure what’s so hard to understand.
I also said that it’s definitely allowed. Doesn’t mean I agree with it. This is a hobby not Wall St.
-
This is a hobby not Wall St.
"Now who's being naive, Kay". 8)
I think the main point Bill and I are making is that when something enters the market, it is up to each individual to determine its value to them at that time. In the case of a trading card on eBay, if you don't bid higher than me, I win. If I don't bid higher than you, you win. That's simple. But, if I win something and decide (whether 2 minutes or 2 years) later to sell it at a higher price, that's free enterprise. Not being shitty. You can decide you don't agree with this and that it shouldn't happen, but then I say you're looking at the world through rose-colored glasses.
-
What I’m wondering is how the eff a 1991 Wacky, ANY 1991 Wacky, became a $26 card, let alone a $56 card?!??! PSA or whatever, call me naive, but my brain is still in the realm of an unopened pack of 1991s or 1992s being a $2 or $3 item. I know it’s 30 years on now, but come on. These cards are from the era of black-marked full overstock boxes. Maybe it’s time to dig out the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Dick Tracy the Movie and Desert Storm cards. 😆
-
Not to offend anyone on this forum who may have contributed artwork to the 1991 set, but IMHO it is the worst Wacky set ever released.....
-
I channeled my inner Ernie and wrote COMC. They claimed that, just as Dave said people buy and sell that quick on their site. I then asked "well ok I get that but would you check if they were the same person?" Nothing but crickets from them.
I think I mentioned he did nothing but forward me his policy against shilling. I too asked him if he made any attempts to link buyer and seller with quick turnaround and also zilch in response.
-
Okay, maybe not morally bankrupt. But I’ve always thought it’s quite shitty to purchase something that someone else clearly wants for their collection and sell it at a higher price - knowingly luring them in.
Every item ever sold, someone else wanted so I am not sure how you expect the obtaining and selling ie supply chain process to work.
-
Not to offend anyone on this forum who may have contributed artwork to the 1991 set, but IMHO it is the worst Wacky set ever released.....
Would you agree the bigger issue might be how far off the reservation the creators went in terms of product choices? That’s always been my beef with this set. Although movie VHS boxes might work well as part of a subset like what we’ve seen in some of the ANS-era subsets, a product like that blended into a general base set just never sat right with me. And a tee shirt advertising a movie or TV show, like Barf Wimpson and Sick Tracy, just goes completely off the exit ramp for me. Then you’ve got the weird toy items, toy/movie crossover, etc. Were they afraid of doing an updated parody of a product they’d spoofed before, and felt they had to find all unique items? It sort of felt that way, though they did revisit Dunkin Donuts, maybe a couple others.
As for the artwork, sure not all of it was top-notch, but I think at least a handful were done quite well. Boozco and Carnival Snakes come to mind, Coorpse Light and Gross Blisters cereal pretty good also. Just my two cents.
-
Haven't been on again for months & picked a weird thread to start with tonight. But am I missing something here? Seems like 2 different arguments at the same time... shilling & free markets. Certainly seems fair for a bidder to buy something for any price they're willing to pay from a seller and then flip it right away for more. But if the seller and bidder are the same person, not cool. Might be legal in some cases, but they should just put a reserve price instead & just keep it if it doesn't sell. Shilling is a lot like the department store's trickery of marking products up 200% one day and then having a "50% Off Sale" the next. Not illegal, per se, but totally unethical (and surprising how many people still don't understand it when their eyes get lured by "SALE" signs).
And I agree... shill for swill is a double ill.
-
Certainly seems fair for a bidder to buy something for any price they're willing to pay from a seller and then flip it right away for more. But if the seller and bidder are the same person, not cool.
I thought the same exact thing when the stock market came into the discussion. Buy and sell all you want, sure....but if you are the same person in a trade (ie, both seller and buyer), get ready to spend some non-quality time in a federal prison if found out.
-
...Or also like when the guy selling bottles of water for $4 ea. at an event sabotages the drinking fountain.
-
Haven't been on again for months & picked a weird thread to start with tonight. But am I missing something here? Seems like 2 different arguments at the same time... shilling & free markets. Certainly seems fair for a bidder to buy something for any price they're willing to pay from a seller and then flip it right away for more. But if the seller and bidder are the same person, not cool. Might be legal in some cases, but they should just put a reserve price instead & just keep it if it doesn't sell. Shilling is a lot like the department store's trickery of marking products up 200% one day and then having a "50% Off Sale" the next. Not illegal, per se, but totally unethical (and surprising how many people still don't understand it when their eyes get lured by "SALE" signs).
And I agree... shill for swill is a double ill.
Exactly, and well said. I always thing that anyone is able to put any buy it now price on anything they want to. That doesn't mean anyone has to bid on it. People put crazy prices on things that are worth nothing all the time.
-
...Or also like when the guy selling bottles of water for $4 ea. at an event sabotages the drinking fountain.
I wonder if National Spittoon has a problem with vendors selling bottles of water for $4 a a concert when you can buy a case of 48 bottles at the grocery stores for $3.98. To me that is way worse than what he was talking about. Or $12 for a beer.
-
I wonder if National Spittoon has a problem with vendors selling bottles of water for $4 a a concert when you can buy a case of 48 bottles at the grocery stores for $3.98. To me that is way worse than what he was talking about. Or $12 for a beer.
FREE ENTERPRISE! IT’S THE FREE ENTERPRISE! DEAL WITH IT!
No, water is not a hobby. This is. A hobby shouldn’t be turned into an enterprise by the collectors. It’s no longer a hobby at that point, it’s a business.
-
FREE ENTERPRISE! IT’S THE FREE ENTERPRISE! DEAL WITH IT!
No, water is not a hobby. This is. A hobby shouldn’t be turned into an enterprise by the collectors. It’s no longer a hobby at that point, it’s a business.
I still don't get your logic. Yes, this is a hobby. There are thousands of people that turn their hobby into a business. That is free enterprise. You might not like it, but everyone has the right to do it if they want to.
-
Ironically, I already stated that it should not be illegal. I just don’t support the act of flipping.
I’m not quite sure what there isn’t to understand, but I will abstain from another redundant post.
-
Ironically, I already stated that it should not be illegal. I just don’t support the act of flipping.
I’m not quite sure what there isn’t to understand, but I will abstain from another redundant post.
OK, but there is no irony as I never stated that it should be illegal.
-
Well, I should add that I have no problem with $4 bottles of water at a ballgame as long as they allow you to bring your own water in. That's the "free" in free enterprise, which I agree with. So, when it comes to shill bidding, it's all about "transparency". As long as a buyer knows that a seller is bidding his own stuff up, that's fine. That would be like a 'floating reserve price' or something. It's the obfuscation of it that makes it shilling in my book. Which is why I think it's totally fair when prospective bidders rally together to decide a price and a selected bidder amongst them beforehand. Evens the playing field in a way. But I haven't used eBay or any auction for a very very long time. . .
They actually closed my account without my consent just for not logging in for a while. Original user since early 1997 (so early that I never had to give them my credit card all this time)... and they shut it down just for not logging in. Always liked to call it "EvilBay", and they've proved it again.
-
Well, I should add that I have no problem with $4 bottles of water at a ballgame as long as they allow you to bring your own water in. That's the "free" in free enterprise, which I agree with. So, when it comes to shill bidding, it's all about "transparency". As long as a buyer knows that a seller is bidding his own stuff up, that's fine. That would be like a 'floating reserve price' or something. It's the obfuscation of it that makes it shilling in my book. Which is why I think it's totally fair when prospective bidders rally together to decide a price and a selected bidder amongst them beforehand. Evens the playing field in a way. But I haven't used eBay or any auction for a very very long time. . .
They actually closed my account without my consent just for not logging in for a while. Original user since early 1997 (so early that I never had to give them my credit card all this time)... and they shut it down just for not logging in. Always liked to call it "EvilBay", and they've proved it again.
Wow, didn't know they would close down dormant accounts. I think you and I became users of ebay before it was ebay, it was a classified ads website/auction site. The company officially changed the name of its service from AuctionWeb to eBay in September 1997 so I am not sure if one can have an ebay profile from earlier than Sept 1997, mine is September 1997 but I was a user of Auctionweb prior.
-
The company officially changed the name of its service from AuctionWeb to eBay in September 1997 so I am not sure if one can have an ebay profile from earlier than Sept 1997, mine is September 1997 but I was a user of Auctionweb prior.
Mine is Feb 28, 1997. I was a user of AuctionWeb too, and I've never given them any credit card info.
-
Mine is Feb 28, 1997. I was a user of AuctionWeb too, and I've never given them any credit card info.
Interesting, I wonder why mine matches when ebay actually started in September. I could swear I was using ebay was it wasn't even auctionweb yet, it was like a west coast classified ads thing that people all across the country would use.
-
Ernie... You're right. AuctionWeb! I totally forgot. I guess that's why I started calling them "EvilBay", too, since the name changed & it felt like a new entity had taken over when the newer rules started making things more difficult. If I remember right, it used to be free to list in the beginning, too. And there weren't such things as 'reserve price auctions'. AND you could see the email of the sellers, too, which was good for resourceful bidders and not so good for those waiting to spike on the last day. Man, all the drama in those days over people contacting sellers & getting them to sell privately, and of course finding out about all the rest of the Wackys they also had. It was still a "First Come, First Served" world where the resorceful sleuths still had the upper hand regardless of their bankrolls. And we all spent many an hour arguing on the forums of the day about the 4 or 5 different styles of aquiring Wackys and which was more ethical, etc. Wealth vs. Skill & Timing. Collectors vs. Dealers. In-group Back-scratching vs. Robin Hood Trickle-down...
...well anyway, regardless of my original support, my exclusive 1997 AuctionWeb/Evilbay Club Card is no more. I probably didn't have the earliest signup, but I'm guessing mine was the only one still left without a credit-card on file, though... which I was proud of. Hope no one else lost theirs due to inactivity.
-
Ernie... You're right. AuctionWeb! I totally forgot. I guess that's why I started calling them "EvilBay", too, since the name changed & it felt like a new entity had taken over when the newer rules started making things more difficult. If I remember right, it used to be free to list in the beginning, too. And there weren't such things as 'reserve price auctions'. AND you could see the email of the sellers, too, which was good for resourceful bidders and not so good for those waiting to spike on the last day. Man, all the drama in those days over people contacting sellers & getting them to sell privately, and of course finding out about all the rest of the Wackys they also had. It was still a "First Come, First Served" world where the resorceful sleuths still had the upper hand regardless of their bankrolls. And we all spent many an hour arguing on the forums of the day about the 4 or 5 different styles of aquiring Wackys and which was more ethical, etc. Wealth vs. Skill & Timing. Collectors vs. Dealers. In-group Back-scratching vs. Robin Hood Trickle-down...
...well anyway, regardless of my original support, my exclusive 1997 AuctionWeb/Evilbay Club Card is no more. I probably didn't have the earliest signup, but I'm guessing mine was the only one still left without a credit-card on file, though... which I was proud of. Hope no one else lost theirs due to inactivity.
I joined in Fall, 1998 and have never had a credit card on file. But I have also been exclusively a buyer.
-
AND you could see the email of the sellers, too, which was good for resourceful bidders and not so good for those waiting to spike on the last day.
I was contacted by one eBayer who was angry that I won with a last-second bid. I simply replied that they should have bid higher.
I joined in Fall, 1998 and have never had a credit card on file. But I have also been exclusively a buyer.
I've never had a credit card on file either, but I did sell a few items in the early '90s. I think what make eBay explode was integrating with PayPal. I hated having to send or wait for money orders or as a buyer and seller, respectively.
-
Well, I should add that I have no problem with $4 bottles of water at a ballgame as long as they allow you to bring your own water in. That's the "free" in free enterprise, which I agree with. So, when it comes to shill bidding, it's all about "transparency". As long as a buyer knows that a seller is bidding his own stuff up, that's fine. That would be like a 'floating reserve price' or something. It's the obfuscation of it that makes it shilling in my book. Which is why I think it's totally fair when prospective bidders rally together to decide a price and a selected bidder amongst them beforehand. Evens the playing field in a way. But I haven't used eBay or any auction for a very very long time. . .
They actually closed my account without my consent just for not logging in for a while. Original user since early 1997 (so early that I never had to give them my credit card all this time)... and they shut it down just for not logging in. Always liked to call it "EvilBay", and they've proved it again.
I too have been a Ebay users for OVER twenty years. I bought and sold countless items. However, lately I have only bought various items, until earlier this week.
I sold my first item in over a decade. So Ebay has a rule if you haven't sold anything recently they will hold the buyer's money hostage until you send the item to your buyer. My issue is the item I sold was had a final price over $2,300. So now, because I fall under the 'haven't sold things lately' category Ebay is hold my $2,300+ hostage until I not only send the item, but until it is delivered. What kind of crap is that?!?!?!
When I complained to Ebay they assured me that they are not earning interest on my money. However, I countered that I was losing interest on the money they are holding hostage, and that I should be compensated for my money being held hostage. Of course they basically told me to go pound sand.
-
Ebay has a rule if you haven't sold anything recently they will hold the buyer's money hostage until you send the item to your buyer.
That's good to know. If I ever start selling again, I'll make sure my first sale is a low dollar item. Thanks for the info.
-
It's great to know that I wasn't the only one who never gave eBay my credit card info. Part of me wishes I'd seen their jerky email soon enough to save my 1997 account. But the rest of me says 'good riddance' EvilBay! They used to be cool in the early days, but it didn't take them long to keep milking $ out of both sides of the transactions & treating everyone like numbers. So, they're really in the same boat as the social media companies & Amazon, none of which I use. So, in a way, them ditching my account was like getting a digital bath. ...An old-fashioned dude one, of course... like on "Duzn't Do Nuthin"... none of this "Jean Nutty" stuff. Grrrr...
-
So, in a way, them ditching my account was like getting a digital bath. ...An old-fashioned dude one, of course... like on "Duzn't Do Nuthin"... none of this "Jean Nutty" stuff. Grrrr...
Toadally dude! :]
These two wacky bathers might make a good mashup.
I'll scrub your back if you do mine.
-
Heh... forgot there was someone with that moniker on here. No offense to the person, just the late-series Wacky.
(I just noticed the spelling of 'moniker'... why isn't it pronounced, "mon-ike-er", or have a "c"?)
-
Heh... forgot there was someone with that moniker on here. No offense to the person, just the late-series Wacky.
(I just noticed the spelling of 'moniker'... why isn't it pronounced, "mon-ike-er", or have a "c"?)
I feel like “moniker” is one of the few words that makes sense phonetically. I’m learning Serbian, which is quite difficult. However, each letter strictly has one pronunciation. So, no “cat” vs. “face” for example. Not sure why those were the first two words I thought of…
-
I feel like “moniker” is one of the few words that makes sense phonetically. I’m learning Serbian, which is quite difficult. However, each letter strictly has one pronunciation. So, no “cat” vs. “face” for example. Not sure why those were the first two words I thought of…
To quote the incomparable Benny Hill:
She said, "You can't even see straight now."
He said, "I can see straight, you don't have to shout."
He said, "I can see clear as a die that cat coming in's only got one eye."
She said, "That cat ain't coming in; he's going out."