Wacky Packages Forum

Wacky Packages Discussion => General Wacky Packages Discussion => Original Series => Topic started by: NationalSpittoon on August 17, 2016, 12:05:19 PM

Title: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 17, 2016, 12:05:19 PM
I'm not sure about all of them, so I can use some help... But I'll say the ones that I have problems with.

Series 1
Duzn't

Series 3
Moonshine
Argh

Series 4
Choke Wagon
Mustard Charge

Series 5
Muleburro
Swiss Mess
Shot Wheels
Cram
Clank
Slaytex
Chumps
Graft
Triks

Series 6
Mold Rush
Play Dumb
Clammy (Possibly OC)

Series 9
Heartburn

Series 10
Uncle Bums

Series 14
Rotsa Root
Rebell
Battletime

Series 16
Dirtycell

Please tell me if these are common. Thanks!

Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Hustler08 on August 17, 2016, 12:09:21 PM
I'm not sure about all of them, so I can use some help... But I'll say the ones that I have problems with.

Series 1
Duzn't

Series 3
Moonshine
Argh

Series 4
Choke Wagon
Mustard Charge

Series 5
Muleburro
Swiss Mess
Shot Wheels
Cram
Clank
Slaytex
Chumps
Graft
Triks

Series 6
Mold Rush
Play Dumb
Clammy (Possibly OC)

Series 9
Heartburn

Series 10
Uncle Bums

Series 14
Rotsa Root
Rebell
Battletime

Series 16
Dirtycell

Please tell me if these are common. Thanks!

Yes. also Series 3 Sweathard!!!
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 17, 2016, 12:50:13 PM
Choke Wagon, Shot Wheels, Mold Rush, yes. Clammy is literally impossible to get well-centered as part of another sticker is on the card when it is centered.

Here is my list:

Series 2: 8-Lives, Gurgle, Botch, Awful Bits, Capn Crud, Ditch Masters, Putrid, Brittle

Series 3: Raw Leaves, Sweathard, also Choke King is always tilted

Series 4: Choke Wagon, Blue Beanie, Hipton

Series 5: Shot Wheels

Series 6: Mold Rush, Clammy

Series 7: Feetena

Series 9: Pigpen Oil, Foolite, Jerky Fruits, GI Toe

Series 11: Bash, Alpain

Series 16: Floral, Sufferin, Clubbed Canadian, Copperbone, Sucker Twin
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 17, 2016, 03:39:32 PM
Choke Wagon, Shot Wheels, Mold Rush, yes. Clammy is literally impossible to get well-centered as part of another sticker is on the card when it is centered.

Here is my list:

Series 2: 8-Lives, Gurgle, Botch, Awful Bits, Capn Crud, Ditch Masters, Putrid, Brittle

Series 3: Raw Leaves, Sweathard, also Choke King is always tilted

Series 4: Choke Wagon, Blue Beanie, Hipton

Series 5: Shot Wheels

Series 6: Mold Rush, Clammy

Series 7: Feetena

Series 9: Pigpen Oil, Foolite, Jerky Fruits, GI Toe

Series 11: Bash, Alpain

Series 16: Floral, Sufferin, Clubbed Canadian, Copperbone, Sucker Twin

Yeah I've heard about some of the hard ones like 8 Lives, Awful Bits, and Putrid but mine are centered.  :^)
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 17, 2016, 04:21:45 PM
Let's see a scan of your 8-Lives!
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 18, 2016, 03:49:00 AM
(https://s4.postimg.org/5h4ue20ft/0818160648.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5h4ue20ft/)

Why is it sideways? And the picture is really bad..

Awful Bits and Putrid = White back
8 Lives = Tan back
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 18, 2016, 06:51:36 AM
The Putrid and Awful Bits are very nicely centered. The 8-Lives is still somewhat OC as expected. So many of them are that it's almost unbelievable that any were well centered enough to get a PSA 9 and were also otherwise high grade. Truly hard to find.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 18, 2016, 08:04:25 PM
Interestingly, both Awful Bits & Putrid are tougher as tan backs.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 19, 2016, 03:23:04 AM
Interestingly, both Awful Bits & Putrid are tougher as tan backs.

Aren't they all tougher as tan backs in series 2?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Tom Keen on August 19, 2016, 09:36:20 AM
Interestingly, both Awful Bits & Putrid are tougher as tan backs.
Tougher to find than white backs or tougher to find as centered cards?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 19, 2016, 09:50:19 AM
Tougher to find than white backs or tougher to find as centered cards?

Tougher to find centered than the white back versions.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bigtomi on August 20, 2016, 11:36:08 AM
Let's see a scan of your 8-Lives!
This is my keeper [so far]. It took me a while to find one this good and, like Dave says, it still has its flaws:

(https://s3.postimg.org/c3zxgbc27/IMG_0044.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/c3zxgbc27/)

Also, while I was at it, here's all the extra 8-Lives I have. Obviously, not a big sample, but you can see that centering is NOT one of this card's virtues:

(https://s3.postimg.org/5e103yt9b/IMG_0045.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5e103yt9b/)
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Fanatical_and_Sickly on August 21, 2016, 06:16:18 AM
Also, while I was at it, here's all the extra 8-Lives I have. Obviously, not a big sample, but you can see that centering is NOT one of this card's virtues:

(https://s3.postimg.org/5e103yt9b/IMG_0045.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5e103yt9b/)

Really seems like the 9-Lives image was erroneously placed low within its position on the sheet, and that a standard sheet cut will always have the tuna can seemingly off center left.
Meaning only sheets that were mis-cut will give what optically seems like a centered card, when in fact, those are the cards that are OC.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 21, 2016, 08:38:37 AM
Really seems like the 9-Lives image was erroneously placed low within its position on the sheet, and that a standard sheet cut will always have the tuna can seemingly off center left.
Meaning only sheets that were mis-cut will give what optically seems like a centered card, when in fact, those are the cards that are OC.

Exactly. Which is why it's hard to believe one like this not only was miscut in just the right way, but also stayed in perfect shape for 43 years. Incredible serendipity!

(https://s19.postimg.org/6pn6hlmeb/8livestan.jpg)
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 21, 2016, 08:49:12 AM
Really seems like the 9-Lives image was erroneously placed low within its position on the sheet, and that a standard sheet cut will always have the tuna can seemingly off center left.
Meaning only sheets that were mis-cut will give what optically seems like a centered card, when in fact, those are the cards that are OC.
Exactly!  This is part of why grading is such a crock. I know people have the ability to remove creases from cards which is totally undetectable from PSA.  Is the real goal of grading purely cosmetic or is the goal to get "proof" versions of cards ie straight from the pack like a coin straight from the mint, anything that is not straight from the pack is now downgraded to uncirculated.  Should wackys follow suit to some degree so a 9 lives straight from the pack is higher grade than anything that was circulated?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 21, 2016, 10:22:14 AM
Exactly!  This is part of why grading is such a crock. I know people have the ability to remove creases from cards which is totally undetectable from PSA.  Is the real goal of grading purely cosmetic or is the goal to get "proof" versions of cards ie straight from the pack like a coin straight from the mint, anything that is not straight from the pack is now downgraded to uncirculated.  Should wackys follow suit to some degree so a 9 lives straight from the pack is higher grade than anything that was circulated?

I don't believe creases can be removed. Yes, pressing, when done by a knowledgeable individual, can remove non color breaking bends/ripples. This is really more useful for comics than cards.

I am not in favor of any manipulation done to improve a card's appearance other than removing wax stains, which were not originally present on the card. I don't see what any of this has to do with PSA being a crock.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 21, 2016, 12:40:04 PM
I guess in a way some cards could be graded as centered when they don't look centered like 8 Lives.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 21, 2016, 02:11:44 PM
I guess in a way some cards could be graded as centered when they don't look centered like 8 Lives.

That would never work. The fact that a card is commonly OC doesn't make that desirable or esthetically pleasing, and no one knows how the card should "really" look.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 21, 2016, 02:59:56 PM
That would never work. The fact that a card is commonly OC doesn't make that desirable or esthetically pleasing, and no one knows how the card should "really" look.

Well if it was placed on the sheet in an odd fashion, especially on the bottom of the sheet being that so you can't see the border, then it won't be centered for anyone unless it's OC, correct? Getting rid of the bottom of the sheet causes to show less of the card itself making the card look OC. It being OC for all of them would be plausible except for the fact that they would be a smaller card if they didn't want to take a small amount of another card, which would mean the top card of that row would show the stars of the sheet. So, I'm not sure how you mean it would not work. While it's not aesthetically pleasing, every card can be OC.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 21, 2016, 06:14:22 PM
Sorry, no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 21, 2016, 06:49:30 PM
I don't believe creases can be removed. Yes, pressing, when done by a knowledgeable individual, can remove non color breaking bends/ripples. This is really more useful for comics than cards.

I am not in favor of any manipulation done to improve a card's appearance other than removing wax stains, which were not originally present on the card. I don't see what any of this has to do with PSA being a crock.
You are incorrect, creases can and are removed and PSA has no clue.  So given that a perfect 8 lives sticker needs to technically be offcenter from its sheet for PSA to think it perfect, given that PSA has no way to detect fixed stickers and given that some day, there will be a saturation of high graded PSA cards, PSA is a crock.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 21, 2016, 08:08:11 PM
You are incorrect, creases can and are removed and PSA has no clue.

You have a hoard of 1st series stickers. Find all the ones that are well centered but with creases, remove the creases and send them in for some PSA 10s. Why are you leaving all that money on the table?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 22, 2016, 04:44:33 AM
Sorry, no idea what you're talking about.

Read it, and you will.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 22, 2016, 05:58:09 AM
Read it, and you will.

I did read it, and I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say. This is the part I don't understand at all:

"Getting rid of the bottom of the sheet causes to show less of the card itself making the card look OC. It being OC for all of them would be plausible except for the fact that they would be a smaller card if they didn't want to take a small amount of another card, which would mean the top card of that row would show the stars of the sheet. So, I'm not sure how you mean it would not work. While it's not aesthetically pleasing, every card can be OC."
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 22, 2016, 06:18:53 AM
I did read it, and I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say. This is the part I don't understand at all:

"Getting rid of the bottom of the sheet causes to show less of the card itself making the card look OC. It being OC for all of them would be plausible except for the fact that they would be a smaller card if they didn't want to take a small amount of another card, which would mean the top card of that row would show the stars of the sheet. So, I'm not sure how you mean it would not work. While it's not aesthetically pleasing, every card can be OC."

What I'm trying to get at is that the way the card was placed on the sheet they probably tried to avoid showing the lines on the sheet, therefore they cut the card higher.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 23, 2016, 05:21:20 AM
(https://s14.postimg.cc/h1fgh8m5p/0823160819.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h1fgh8m5p/)
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 23, 2016, 06:23:33 AM
I absolutely hate tilt and diamond cut like that Duznt...and it's one of my biggest peeves with PSA, because they don't penalize it at all as long as the technical centering requirement is met. That Duznt probably wouldn't even fit in the holder, they'd probably call it miscut.

I mean look at this thing. You have to be kidding me!

(https://s19.postimg.org/puzhk8ecj/image.jpg)
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Tom Keen on August 23, 2016, 07:58:27 AM
What I'm trying to get at is that the way the card was placed on the sheet they probably tried to avoid showing the lines on the sheet, therefore they cut the card higher.
I understand your point, wouldn't that also hold true to titles on the side of the sheet as there are color marks and lines that go all the way around the sheets, correct?  Are most stickers found on the bottom of sheets tough to find centered?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 23, 2016, 08:34:12 AM
I understand your point, wouldn't that also hold true to titles on the side of the sheet as there are color marks and lines that go all the way around the sheets, correct?  Are most stickers found on the bottom of sheets tough to find centered?

The cards that are toughest to find centered are usually on the edges of the sheet. However, 8-Lives is not, Capn Crud is not. In many case, as Patrick said, the image is just misplaced for no apparent reason.

Also, the way the sheets were cut, I do not believe it would be possible to cut the bottom row of cards "higher" without affecting the rest of the sheet, nor do I believe Topps cared enough at the time to try.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 23, 2016, 08:45:13 AM
I understand your point, wouldn't that also hold true to titles on the side of the sheet as there are color marks and lines that go all the way around the sheets, correct?  Are most stickers found on the bottom of sheets tough to find centered?

No, because they weren't placed odd on the sheet.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 24, 2016, 03:29:10 PM
You have a hoard of 1st series stickers. Find all the ones that are well centered but with creases, remove the creases and send them in for some PSA 10s. Why are you leaving all that money on the table?
Should I be offended that you believe I would alter stickers for profit?  You have confused me with some of the people you still call friends in this hobby who would and are probably doing it.


Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 24, 2016, 04:19:15 PM
Should I be offended that you believe I would alter stickers for profit?  You have confused me with some of the people you still call friends in this hobby who would and are probably doing it.

I was just kidding Ernie. I really don't know what you're talking about, I don't believe a hard crease can be removed from a card, but maybe someday you can show me how it's done.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: quas on August 24, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
I was just kidding Ernie. I really don't know what you're talking about, I don't believe a hard crease can be removed from a card, but maybe someday you can show me how it's done.

Dave, I'd have to agree with you on that one, regarding a hard crease.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 24, 2016, 05:42:53 PM
Dave, I'd have to agree with you on that one, regarding a hard crease.

There are definitely experts who press comic books and can remove soft bends, ripples and such. That practice is rampant, but even that I can't see working with a sticker since it involves heat. Wouldn't it melt the glue?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 24, 2016, 06:18:48 PM
I was just kidding Ernie. I really don't know what you're talking about, I don't believe a hard crease can be removed from a card, but maybe someday you can show me how it's done.
Of course you are kidding but the hobby does have issues with people resealing packs, creating restick ludlows and such so I take it seriously not to be lumped with those criminals who have gone unpunished.

You need to do more research on this, I am shocked you are so unaware of this practice in baseball cards.  The first forum I searched on google has people talking about how the remove creases.  While I am sure it is harder on wacky stickers, diecuts are primed for creases to be removed. This again is why I consider grading to be a crock.  Is it a "proof card" straight from the pack that is sought or just one that looks perfect but circulated no matter what steps were taken to make it look perfect ie removing a crease.  8 lives has to technically be miscut from the sheet to meet centering guidelines, ridiculous.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 24, 2016, 06:20:30 PM
I was just kidding Ernie. I really don't know what you're talking about, I don't believe a hard crease can be removed from a card, but maybe someday you can show me how it's done.
BTW I never said I know how its done so I have no expertise in this area.  Certainly a hard deep crease would unlikely be removable but light creases seems very likely based on what I have read is going on in baseball card arena.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: quas on August 24, 2016, 06:36:19 PM
Botox?  Or maybe a name brand, like BoTopps?   ;)
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 25, 2016, 03:33:31 AM
BTW I never said I know how its done so I have no expertise in this area.  Certainly a hard deep crease would unlikely be removable but light creases seems very likely based on what I have read is going on in baseball card arena.

I am well aware of slimy practices that go on relative to squeezing money out of collectibles. The comic book world is where this is truly sickening, I don't even want to mention some of the things that are done because I find it so depressing. However, grading companies are partially successful because of these shenanigans, buying an encapsulated item gives the buyer peace of mind that the card hasn't been trimmed, recolored, etc. Yes, they are imperfect. 12 years ago CGC certified a bunch of comics that were trimmed in a way they could not recognize at the time. It's like steroids, the slime balls always try to stay ahead of the grading companies. I hate this stuff, but I refuse to let it ruin my hobbies, because then the bad guys have won.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 25, 2016, 09:08:59 AM
I am well aware of slimy practices that go on relative to squeezing money out of collectibles. The comic book world is where this is truly sickening, I don't even want to mention some of the things that are done because I find it so depressing. However, grading companies are partially successful because of these shenanigans, buying an encapsulated item gives the buyer peace of mind that the card hasn't been trimmed, recolored, etc. Yes, they are imperfect. 12 years ago CGC certified a bunch of comics that were trimmed in a way they could not recognize at the time. It's like steroids, the slime balls always try to stay ahead of the grading companies. I hate this stuff, but I refuse to let it ruin my hobbies, because then the bad guys have won.
I disagree with you that grading gives a buyer peace of mind.  Many graded baseball cards had creases at one point, now they don't and PSA has no idea.  Is that what you meant by peace of mind?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 25, 2016, 09:18:46 AM
I disagree with you that grading gives a buyer peace of mind.  Many graded baseball cards had creases at one point, now they don't and PSA has no idea.  Is that what you meant by peace of mind?

I believe you are exaggerating how widespread this practice is. And yes, PSA and CGC may not be perfect, but they are far better at catching restoration, trimming and recoloring then I am, so even if they are imperfect, I have more peace of mind than I would buying a raw card on ebay.

Particularly, with unopened packs, I would have far more peace of mind buying an expensive pack knowing it has the stamp of approval of a knowledgeable and ethical hobby figure, rather than buying it raw on ebay, where the odds of re-sealing are alarmingly high.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 25, 2016, 11:55:21 AM
What is with this "crease" argument?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: quas on August 25, 2016, 12:02:29 PM
What is with this "crease" argument?

Whatever it is, it is getting in-crease-ingly more interesting.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 25, 2016, 12:09:07 PM
And by the way, it makes perfect sense to me that an 8-Lives is more desirable centered even though that's not its natural state based on sheet placement. Centering is valued for esthetic reasons. There are a lot of cards that are hard to find well-centered for a bunch of different reasons, and they all command a premium when centered. Why should 8-Lives be any different?
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on August 25, 2016, 01:48:18 PM
And by the way, it makes perfect sense to me that an 8-Lives is more desirable centered even though that's not its natural state based on sheet placement. Centering is valued for esthetic reasons. There are a lot of cards that are hard to find well-centered for a bunch of different reasons, and they all command a premium when centered. Why should 8-Lives be any different?

It's not any different...
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 25, 2016, 07:33:01 PM
I believe you are exaggerating how widespread this practice is. And yes, PSA and CGC may not be perfect, but they are far better at catching restoration, trimming and recoloring then I am, so even if they are imperfect, I have more peace of mind than I would buying a raw card on ebay.

Particularly, with unopened packs, I would have far more peace of mind buying an expensive pack knowing it has the stamp of approval of a knowledgeable and ethical hobby figure, rather than buying it raw on ebay, where the odds of re-sealing are alarmingly high.
According to the baseball card forums, I am not exaggerating.  I advise you visit more baseball card forums.  I only started visiting them thanks to Steve dropping by with his incredible insite on unopen package valuation only to find out he didn't have that much insight after all.  I was wondering if his approach to communication in the baseball card world was the same as it was here.  While checking out the forums, I noticed lots of chatter about crease correction yet they all said it was taboo to talk about it.

What exactly is it that you are satisfying with high grade material?  It is visually satisfying?   You can't possibly tell the different between a crease corrected card and one that is not as PSA supposedly misses many.  I would argue that most crease corrected cards are graded as why bother crease correcting it and not reaping the benefits of a high PSA grade?  Therefore, I think your peace of mind is not well founded as I think the higher likelihood of getting a high grade crease corrected card is a PSA slabbed one versus one you find on ebay sold as an ungraded card.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 25, 2016, 07:36:05 PM
And by the way, it makes perfect sense to me that an 8-Lives is more desirable centered even though that's not its natural state based on sheet placement. Centering is valued for esthetic reasons. There are a lot of cards that are hard to find well-centered for a bunch of different reasons, and they all command a premium when centered. Why should 8-Lives be any different?
A crease corrected card is aesthetically pleasing yet you are so concerned about a crease corrected card, you would pay extra for PSA's opinion about something you can't even spot and that PSA could/does miss anyway.  That just doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 25, 2016, 07:53:13 PM
Ernie, you're blowing this crease correction thing way out of proportion. If it were that easy don't you think high grade Rookie cards would be coming out of the woodwork the way their values have skyrocketed? That hasn't happened. I looked at net 54 and I see a couple of people (who I don't know, and who may have some vested interested or bias) touting crease removal. That's all I see. I really don't think it's a big issue but I respect your right to disagree.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 25, 2016, 08:14:46 PM
Ernie, you're blowing this crease correction thing way out of proportion. If it were that easy don't you think high grade Rookie cards would be coming out of the woodwork the way their values have skyrocketed? That hasn't happened. I looked at net 54 and I see a couple of people (who I don't know, and who may have some vested interested or bias) touting crease removal. That's all I see. I really don't think it's a big issue but I respect your right to disagree.
Rookie cards HAVE and will continue to come out of the woodwork now that their prices have skyrocketed due to what I believe is baby boomer oldest kids starting to retire with money to burn.  The problem is, most old cards don't have creasing issues, they have corner issues and I haven;'t heard anyone has figured out how to fix the corners.  I absolutely believe that perfectly cornered, perfectly centered yet creased old rookie cards are being fixed, no question in my mind.

Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: MoldRush on August 27, 2016, 01:40:48 PM
I would think that potentially high valued rookie cards that have a crease which would potentially lower the grade but also have sharp corners and centering so as to otherwise merit a NM grade would be an unusual situation; the presence of even soft creases SHOULD mean that the card in question was not handled with utmost care (i.e., owned by a typical kid of the 50's to 70's) and would therefore have other grade-lowering condition issues.  Hopefully this is true and the crease ironing is not as rampant a practice as you believe.  The other, more depressing possibility is that they're doctoring more than creases.  You can never overestimate the resourcefulness of the counterfeiter, which is what this practice is to me.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 27, 2016, 02:30:45 PM
I would think that potentially high valued rookie cards that have a crease which would potentially lower the grade but also have sharp corners and centering so as to otherwise merit a NM grade would be an unusual situation; the presence of even soft creases SHOULD mean that the card in question was not handled with utmost care (i.e., owned by a typical kid of the 50's to 70's) and would therefore have other grade-lowering condition issues.  Hopefully this is true and the crease ironing is not as rampant a practice as you believe.  The other, more depressing possibility is that they're doctoring more than creases.  You can never overestimate the resourcefulness of the counterfeiter, which is what this practice is to me.

I think what you say is true. And yes, people frequently try to trim and re-color cards to improve their appearance, which is one of the reasons why PSA (who, while imperfect, does specifically check for these things) became popular in the first place.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: MoldRush on August 27, 2016, 04:19:49 PM
Reminds me of a time I tried to do that as a 7- or 8-year old, a really wrinkled and faded 1975 Topps baseball card, I think it was Don Hahn of the Mets, I tried to use blue and orange markers to restore the bold colors of the border.  That was the set where there was no consistent color scheme for a given team.  It only ended up looking worse I'm sure.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: Paul_Maul on August 27, 2016, 05:10:34 PM
I absolutely believe that perfectly cornered, perfectly centered yet creased old rookie cards are being fixed, no question in my mind.

Just occurred to me that the most likely source of cards like you're describing is from cutting up sheets.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 27, 2016, 08:52:17 PM
Just occurred to me that the most likely source of cards like you're describing is from cutting up sheets.
Yes, that would be a great source for sure
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 27, 2016, 08:57:08 PM
I think what you say is true. And yes, people frequently try to trim and re-color cards to improve their appearance, which is one of the reasons why PSA (who, while imperfect, does specifically check for these things) became popular in the first place.
One of the baseball forums that goes back like 25 years discusses that it is very common practice to improve card appearance. Various kits were(are) being sold that fix each of the various types of issues from card loss, to corners, to color to creases.

The big debate there is that many said there is nothing wrong with crease and corner cleanup or anything that puts the card back to its original shape without adding foreign material to the card ie no color fixing, no fixing card loss but crease cleanup and corner cleanup(not  with trimming) should be accepted as perfectly fine.  It all feeds into my theory that they whole PSA grading thing is a crock.  Why doesn't someone care if a minor crease is fixed on a card to make it look perfect again?  Is is reasonable to think two identical cards, one that had crease cleaned up and one without should being worth potentially 1000% differently in value?  Ridiculous.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: MoldRush on August 28, 2016, 10:33:31 AM
As someone into vintage comics and cards myself, I have to admit I'm largely clueless as to the extent of these restoration activities.  That being said, I haven't really chased high-end stuff where the likelihood of paying full market price for an "enhanced" item would be high.  The most I've ever paid for a single comic is probably only in the $15 to $20 range, and that was probably in the early 90's.

I'm also a lifelong, off-and-on coin collector, and one of the maxims of that hobby is "before you buy the coin, buy the book", meaning become as knowledgeable and informed as you can possibly be before splurging for a big-ticket item, or even not-so-expensive coins.  There's a whole variety of unscrupulous activities going on ranging from using chemical or mechanical restorative tactics (a big no-no in the hobby) to outright fakes and counterfeits of rare and valuable coins.   As far as cards are concerned,  I'm sure Ernie is far more armed with the info and knowledge to avoid being scammed than most of us.  Basically if you have enough passion for a given hobby to invest the time to gain the necessary knowledge, you become the shady dealer's worst nightmare.
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: bandaches on August 29, 2016, 03:02:31 PM
As someone into vintage comics and cards myself, I have to admit I'm largely clueless as to the extent of these restoration activities.  That being said, I haven't really chased high-end stuff where the likelihood of paying full market price for an "enhanced" item would be high.  The most I've ever paid for a single comic is probably only in the $15 to $20 range, and that was probably in the early 90's.

I'm also a lifelong, off-and-on coin collector, and one of the maxims of that hobby is "before you buy the coin, buy the book", meaning become as knowledgeable and informed as you can possibly be before splurging for a big-ticket item, or even not-so-expensive coins.  There's a whole variety of unscrupulous activities going on ranging from using chemical or mechanical restorative tactics (a big no-no in the hobby) to outright fakes and counterfeits of rare and valuable coins.   As far as cards are concerned,  I'm sure Ernie is far more armed with the info and knowledge to avoid being scammed than most of us.  Basically if you have enough passion for a given hobby to invest the time to gain the necessary knowledge, you become the shady dealer's worst nightmare.
Fantastic post!  :bravo_2:
Title: Re: OS Frequent OC Cards
Post by: NationalSpittoon on September 08, 2016, 12:18:33 PM
There is a centered white back Sweathard on eBay.