Wacky Packages Forum
Wacky Packages Discussion => General Wacky Packages Discussion => Topic started by: Paul_Maul on May 18, 2012, 08:12:51 AM
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Discuss....
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=129607&searchby=3&searchvalue=ratz&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=Incredible-1967-Topps-%22Wacky-Packages%22-Die-Cut-%2332-%22Ratz-Crackers%22---PSA-MINT-9-%221-of-1!%22
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Discuss....
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=129607&searchby=3&searchvalue=ratz&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=Incredible-1967-Topps-%22Wacky-Packages%22-Die-Cut-%2332-%22Ratz-Crackers%22---PSA-MINT-9-%221-of-1!%22
That one is so nice it almost looks like a repro. I'm not that schooled in PSA but I could see it going for $7,500.00 and I wouldn't be surprised to see it go for more.
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That one is so nice it almost looks like a repro. I'm not that schooled in PSA but I could see it going for $7,500.00 and I wouldn't be surprised to see it go for more.
Eric Roberts' registry set only has an 8 for the Ratz, so if he's motivated, the price will depend mostly on how deep the pockets of the competition are, I guess. The fact that it's the only 9 will be a big deal in the price too.
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That one is so nice it almost looks like a repro. I'm not that schooled in PSA but I could see it going for $7,500.00 and I wouldn't be surprised to see it go for more.
It looked like it could be a repro to me, as well. I agree, upper 4 figures to even lower 5 wouldn't be out of the question. I wonder where that was discovered...
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Also interesting: based on the certification number, it would appear this was graded within the last few months.
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I'm no expert but it does seem a bit too clean and bright. The color/contrast seems off -- that part really looks like a repro to me.
A question for the experts: the perf line on the left looks odd to me as well. The way it "breaks" seems inconsistent with other Ratz I've seen.
Ok, so here's the big question for the experts: Should the perfs on Ratz always be at the same points? Seems to me the answer is yes. If so, then the perfs are definitely not in the same places as the one pictured on Greg's site (http://www.wackypackages.org/stickers/die-cuts/fronts/ratz_32_front_small.html). Look, for example, at the perf in the lower right of the one from Greg's site. It's completely different on this Ratz. Same with the upper right, where there are two near the corner on Greg's and only one on this. Suspicious or normal?
Edit: these two currently on eBay have perfs in the same locations as the one on Greg's site:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-Wacky-Packages-32-RATZ-CRACKERS-RARE-/280857154877?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416464153d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Die-Cut-Ratz-Crackers-PSA-4-/280630395933?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4156e0041d
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It looked like it could be a repro to me, as well. I agree, upper 4 figures to even lower 5 wouldn't be out of the question. I wonder where that was discovered...
I agree that the final price will be in the $8,000 to $12,000 range. Only the deep pockets will be in on this at these prices. I think it's more a matter of PSA bragging rights rather than a "market" price. It's kind of in its own market.
I was very surprised that this Ratz (ended this morning) didn't even break $1,000. I know the condition is pretty rough, but it is a Ratz, and it is unpunched. Was this one punished for its poor condition, or is the market still a bit soft for these high end items? I don't think I've ever seen a complete Ratz (or cracked animals for that matter - which seems slightly more rare than the Ratz) sell for less than $1000, even in vg/exc condition.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item519f485c6a&item=350564670570&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=4lILs6AD97Mtgsu6WHhr91PUD9k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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WOW, that's the nicest one I've seen. I'm no expert since I never splurged on one but WOW!
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Also interesting: based on the certification number, it would appear this was graded within the last few months.
Yes, the serial # is pretty high. Do you think PSA has gotten tougher or more lenient on wackys over the past 5 years, or have they been pretty consistent in their grading?
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I was very surprised that this Ratz (ended this morning) didn't even break $1,000. I know the condition is pretty rough, but it is a Ratz, and it is unpunched. Was this one punished for its poor condition, or is the market still a bit soft for these high end items? I don't think I've ever seen a complete Ratz (or cracked animals for that matter - which seems slightly more rare than the Ratz) sell for less than $1000, even in vg/exc condition.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item519f485c6a&item=350564670570&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=4lILs6AD97Mtgsu6WHhr91PUD9k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
It doesn't help that the seller didn't bother to take the card out of the penny sleeve and toploader for the pics. That just makes it harder to see the card and makes it look worse in my opinion.
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I'm no expert but it does seem a bit too clean and bright. The color/contrast seems off -- that part really looks like a repro to me.
A question for the experts: the perf line on the left looks odd to me as well. The way it "breaks" seems inconsistent with other Ratz I've seen.
Ok, so here's the big question for the experts: Should the perfs on Ratz always be at the same points? Seems to me the answer is yes. If so, then the perfs are definitely not in the same places as the one pictured on Greg's site (http://www.wackypackages.org/stickers/die-cuts/fronts/ratz_32_front_small.html). Look, for example, at the perf in the lower right of the one from Greg's site. It's completely different on this Ratz. Same with the upper right, where there are two near the corner on Greg's and only one on this. Suspicious or normal?
Edit: these two currently on eBay have perfs in the same locations as the one on Greg's site:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-Wacky-Packages-32-RATZ-CRACKERS-RARE-/280857154877?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416464153d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-Wacky-Packages-Die-Cut-Ratz-Crackers-PSA-4-/280630395933?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4156e0041d
The more I look at the PSA 9 one the more it doesn't look right. The colors are much lighter than a typical one you would see, and the yellow is hanging out of register quite a bit, making it look blurry. It also doesn't look like it has enough black in the art. Look at these side by side.........
(http://s16.postimage.org/irlolkx75/ratz_comp.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/irlolkx75/)
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If it could be proved to be a fake, what would that mean for PSA?
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The more I look at the PSA 9 one the more it doesn't look right. The colors are much lighter than a typical one you would see, and the yellow is hanging out of register quite a bit, making it look blurry. It also doesn't look like it has enough black in the art. Look at these side by side.........
(http://s16.postimage.org/irlolkx75/ratz_comp.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/irlolkx75/)
It does look just a bit off to me too now that you mention it. I checked the other sample against my Ratz, and the perfs match up perfectly. It's possible that the perfs are not stressed in that good condition, so they don't show up as clearly. Without a high resulution scan, it's hard to tell on the perfs that don't seem to appear.
The strange thing is that on the bottom edge, there appears to be an extra perf just about 1/2 inch in from the right corner. It's clearly not on the sample Ratz & I don't have a perf there on my Ratz either. There also appears to be an extra perf on the lower left side in the middle of the white panel. Mine has 2 perfs there, the sample has 2 perfs & the psa9 has 3. The coloring is a bit off too compared with mine.
If there's ever a card to fake, there's certainly enough money in this one to invest quite a bit to make a copy. If this proves to be fake, I think this would be VERY bad for PSA. I think they insure against the card being a fake based on their price guide, but I don't know if the amount they would stand behind will be anywhere near what this card has the potential to sell for.
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Rob: The color issues I see are exactly as you describe. Definitely seems odd to me.
Bill: Yep, that's one of the perf discrepancies I saw. I was wondering if there were different perf patterns depending on where the card was on the full sheet (i.e. maybe multiple variations of perfs... aiiieeee! completists, hang on to your wallet!). I would only be convinced this was a real card if someone could come up with another Ratz that had the same perf pattern, otherwise it seems mighty iffy to me...
Ok, here's a completed listing on eBay for a Ratz that does appear to have the same perf pattern. Does this mean there are multiple perf patterns for a Ratz? Seems likely?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item519f4edb39&item=350565096249&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=VzYPNweNwM975PgvPZT4YVg%252BsKc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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Rob: The color issues I see are exactly as you describe. Definitely seems odd to me.
Bill: Yep, that's one of the perf discrepancies I saw. I was wondering if there were different perf patterns depending on where the card was on the full sheet (i.e. maybe multiple variations of perfs... aiiieeee! completists, hang on to your wallet!). I would only be convinced this was a real card if someone could come up with another Ratz that had the same perf pattern, otherwise it seems mighty iffy to me...
I checked the back of the psa9 closely against mine. I noticed that about 2/3 of the way up on the right side of the psa9, there's a little jog in the cut, almost like it jogs to the right as it goes up. I noticed this same type of jog on my diecut, however it is on the bottom 45 degree corner on the right hand side. It does appear that the patterns are similar, yet just offset. I would also want to see an other example of ratz to see if there may be multiple cutting patterns. It is strange that the punched ratz, mine & Greg's examples are all exactly the same & this one is off. It's also strange that if someone is making a copy, that the copy would be off in this manner.
I think I have some more Ratz pics. I'll see if I can dig them up to compare.
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Here are 3 more Ratz auctions that just ended in the past week. Looks like all the Ratzs are coming out of the woodwork...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item519f4edb39&item=350565096249&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=4lILs6AD97Mtgsu6WHhr91PUD9k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item519f485c6a&item=350564670570&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=4lILs6AD97Mtgsu6WHhr91PUD9k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item25702aec2a&item=160795651114&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=4lILs6AD97Mtgsu6WHhr91PUD9k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
I don't have the time right now to copy all the pics & blow them up & analyze closely. It does, however, appear that all 3 of these have extra perfs my example & Greg's example don't have. 1 of them has both extra perfs, and each of the other 2 appear to have an extra on the side OR extra on the bottom.
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The card on the left is missing the black plate. There are 4 printing plates, process red, process yellow, process blue and black. The color inks are transparent. When the three colors overprint, you get what apperars to be a light black. So therefore, this card (the one on the left) was only printed with 3 plates instead of 4.
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Discuss....
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=129607&searchby=3&searchvalue=ratz&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=Incredible-1967-Topps-%22Wacky-Packages%22-Die-Cut-%2332-%22Ratz-Crackers%22---PSA-MINT-9-%221-of-1!%22
I wouldn't judge the colors of the scan too much as for all we know, the scanning caused it to be too bright...however, I see what we refer to as a "pinch crease" right above the copyright on the back side. If that is in fact a pinch crease, this is a PSA 5....
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Jay is right. This is missing the black plate overprint. Back in the 90's, at least one proof sheet panel (44 cards with die cuts) was sold without the black plate overprint. This card was most likely cut from the proof sheet, or a similar sheet which would explain the condition. Let's see if the Cracked Animals shows up in similar condition. In the 60's Topps printed 264 card double sheets. Each side contained 3 44 card sets. Each title appeared 6 times on a double sheet and die cuts were not identical from card to card.
With the lack of the black plate, the blue die cut lines are very prominent like on many (if not all) of the 1st series Ludlows. It would be nearly impossible, and crazy, for somebody to create a fake and complicate it with such an authentic looking blue die cut line when a copy of a normal Ratz would not reveal much, if any blue die cut line.
I have several 2nd series stickers with missing black plate overprints, along with a number of 1st series stickers with partial or lightly inked black plates that have the same brightness and appearance of this Ratz. Now if it had #4 on back, there would be a problem.
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Jay is right. This is missing the black plate overprint. Back in the 90's, at least one proof sheet panel (44 cards with die cuts) was sold without the black plate overprint. This card was most likely cut from the proof sheet, or a similar sheet which would explain the condition. Let's see if the Cracked Animals shows up in similar condition. In the 60's Topps printed 264 card double sheets. Each side contained 3 44 card sets. Each title appeared 6 times on a double sheet and die cuts were not identical from card to card.
With the lack of the black plate, the blue die cut lines are very prominent like on many (if not all) of the 1st series Ludlows. It would be nearly impossible, and crazy, for somebody to create a fake and complicate it with such an authentic looking blue die cut line when a copy of a normal Ratz would not reveal much, if any blue die cut line.
I have several 2nd series stickers with missing black plate overprints, along with a number of 1st series stickers with partial or lightly inked black plates that have the same brightness and appearance of this Ratz. Now if it had #4 on back, there would be a problem.
Makes sense. Especially with the missing overprint and the pristine condition. Thanks for the excellent info!
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Jay is right. This is missing the black plate overprint. Back in the 90's, at least one proof sheet panel (44 cards with die cuts) was sold without the black plate overprint. This card was most likely cut from the proof sheet, or a similar sheet which would explain the condition. Let's see if the Cracked Animals shows up in similar condition. In the 60's Topps printed 264 card double sheets. Each side contained 3 44 card sets. Each title appeared 6 times on a double sheet and die cuts were not identical from card to card.
With the lack of the black plate, the blue die cut lines are very prominent like on many (if not all) of the 1st series Ludlows. It would be nearly impossible, and crazy, for somebody to create a fake and complicate it with such an authentic looking blue die cut line when a copy of a normal Ratz would not reveal much, if any blue die cut line.
I have several 2nd series stickers with missing black plate overprints, along with a number of 1st series stickers with partial or lightly inked black plates that have the same brightness and appearance of this Ratz. Now if it had #4 on back, there would be a problem.
That is very interesting info. If this is from a proof sheet, and it's missing the black plate overprint, is it still considered a "full-fledged" Ratz, or would the pre-production status & non-standard printing affect its autenticity as part of the diecut release in any way?
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That is very interesting info. If this is from a proof sheet, and it's missing the black plate overprint, is it still considered a "full-fledged" Ratz, or would the pre-production status & non-standard printing affect its autenticity as part of the diecut release in any way?
I think it's all a matter of personal priorities. If I were considering dropping 10 grand, it would bother me tremendously that
it were cut from a proof sheet. I'd much rather have a "circulated" PSA 8.
Others are focused more on the "1 of 1" PSA 9 status than on details about the actual origins of the card, and it might not
bother them as much.
If you ever have a chance, check out the book "The Card," about the highest graded T206 Honus Wagner baseball card.
This card has sold for over $2 million, and there is every likelihood that it was cut from a sheet and/or otherwise altered:
http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_62.html
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I think it's all a matter of personal priorities. If I were considering dropping 10 grand, it would bother me tremendously that
it were cut from a proof sheet. I'd much rather have a "circulated" PSA 8.
Others are focused more on the "1 of 1" PSA 9 status than on details about the actual origins of the card, and it might not
bother them as much.
If you ever have a chance, check out the book "The Card," about the highest graded T206 Honus Wagner baseball card.
This card has sold for over $2 million, and there is every likelihood that it was cut from a sheet and/or otherwise altered:
http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_62.html
I think being cut from a production sheet that never made it to the cutter way back when is different than a pre-production sheet that's not actually from the release & missing a color plate. Is the T206 cut from a regular production sheet, or a pre-production sheet?
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I think being cut from a production sheet that never made it to the cutter way back when is different than a pre-production sheet that's not actually from the release & missing a color plate. Is the T206 cut from a regular production sheet, or a pre-production sheet?
The Wagner was probably from a normal sheet. I understand that it makes a difference, but being handcut and then trimmed
is as much of or more of an issue than whether or not it was a proof. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but 99% of the
appeal of high grade items to me is their originality. If a sheet happens to survive by a fluke, it's a great collectible, but
having it cut into singles to me cheapens it immensely. It amounts to an attempt to misrepresent the card as an original by omission. A card handcut from a sheet is to me an oddity, whereas a high grade original card is a treasure.
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The Wagner was probably from a normal sheet. I understand that it makes a difference, but being handcut and then trimmed
is as much of or more of an issue than whether or not it was a proof. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but 99% of the
appeal of high grade items to me is their originality. If a sheet happens to survive by a fluke, it's a great collectible, but
having it cut into singles to me cheapens it immensely. It amounts to an attempt to misrepresent the card as an original by omission. A card handcut from a sheet is to me an oddity, whereas a high grade original card is a treasure.
I think you hit it perfectly here. If this Ratz is not from the original circulation, to me it is worth much, much less.
I didn't like the color from the get-go and even if I were able to purchase a Ratz atm I would pass and wait for another. The 1 of 1 PSA 9 is of no importance to me when the color is this poor. Seems strange to me that the rating does not take this into account.
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I think you hit it perfectly here. If this Ratz is not from the original circulation, to me it is worth much, much less.
I didn't like the color from the get-go and even if I were able to purchase a Ratz atm I would pass and wait for another. The 1 of 1 PSA 9 is of no importance to me when the color is this poor. Seems strange to me that the rating does not take this into account.
I prefer my full color punched Ratz which was circulated and enjoyed.
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I prefer my full color punched Ratz which was circulated and enjoyed.
I am with you on this. Now I don't have to stare at corners, edges and such, I can just enjoy the title! Gathering a punched diecut set was the way to go! Also, whether this ratz discussed here is from a proof sheet is moot, it is not a PSA9, it has a pinch crease(perhaps factory created but a pinch crease none the less) on the back as I called out earlier.
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I think you hit it perfectly here. If this Ratz is not from the original circulation, to me it is worth much, much less.
I didn't like the color from the get-go and even if I were able to purchase a Ratz atm I would pass and wait for another. The 1 of 1 PSA 9 is of no importance to me when the color is this poor. Seems strange to me that the rating does not take this into account.
To me a "proof" sheet or card has not been die-cut, so to me this just a Ratz that is missing most or all of the black ink. To me this lessens the value and shouldn't be a PSA 9. It doesn't seem strange to me that it geot a 9 though because we see PSA mess up or make strange grades all the time!
The actual quality of the card is much more important to me than the PSA grade, and they obviously don't always go hand in hand.
I know there are collectors though who are the opposite, and chase the grades and don't really care how accurate the grade is, or if there are blemishes not recognized by PSA.
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To me a "proof" sheet or card has not been die-cut, so to me this just a Ratz that is missing most or all of the black ink. To me this lessens the value and shouldn't be a PSA 9. It doesn't seem strange to me that it geot a 9 though because we see PSA mess up or make strange grades all the time!
The actual quality of the card is much more important to me than the PSA grade, and they obviously don't always go hand in hand.
I know there are collectors though who are the opposite, and chase the grades and don't really care how accurate the grade is, or if there are blemishes not recognized by PSA.
am I the only one who sees this pinch crease on the back near the bottom above the text?
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am I the only one who sees this pinch crease on the back near the bottom above the text?
I see what you're talking about, but I honestly never heard that called a "pinch crease" or ever considered it a noteworthy defect. On the other hand, a "border crease" (a crease running from the perf area to the edge of the card" I consider very significant. The defect you're pointing out is not visible on the front and it doesn't bother me at all.
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I see what you're talking about, but I honestly never heard that called a "pinch crease" or ever considered it a noteworthy defect. On the other hand, a "border crease" (a crease running from the perf area to the edge of the card" I consider very significant. The defect you're pointing out is not visible on the front and it doesn't bother me at all.
It's already up to $3,750. Still a long way to go!
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I see what you're talking about, but I honestly never heard that called a "pinch crease" or ever considered it a noteworthy defect. On the other hand, a "border crease" (a crease running from the perf area to the edge of the card" I consider very significant. The defect you're pointing out is not visible on the front and it doesn't bother me at all.
So you don't consider creases on the back that don't appear on the front as noteworthy? Do you care about writing, gum, sugar and wax stains on tbe backs of checklists?
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So you don't consider creases on the back that don't appear on the front as noteworthy? Do you care about writing, gum, sugar and wax stains on tbe backs of checklists?
I just never thought of this type of defect as a crease. I've seen it on so many die cuts I just figured it was normal for them.
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So you don't consider creases on the back that don't appear on the front as noteworthy? Do you care about writing, gum, sugar and wax stains on tbe backs of checklists?
I would like to see a crease like that up close but I have the same opinion as Dave that from a quality standpoint it wouldn't concern me much at all. It looks like a factory paper crease to me, and if so it would barely be felt with a fingernail running over it.
I would equate it to the little mole on Cindy Crawford's face. Yes, moles are technically a blemish are worthy of a deduction, but when I see her face I still have to give her a perfect 10. ;D
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I just never thought of this type of defect as a crease. I've seen it on so many die cuts I just figured it was normal for them.
These hardly bother me at all too. They almost appear like marks from the pressure of making the actual diecut. Border creases, however, bother me a lot on the diecut & wacky ad series.
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These hardly bother me at all too. They almost appear like marks from the pressure of making the actual diecut. Border creases, however, bother me a lot on the diecut & wacky ad series.
...so you would all not choose a diecut without this pinch crease over one with a pinch crease....i doubt it....
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I got a pinch crease the other day after eating too much cheese. :o
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...so you would all not choose a diecut without this pinch crease over one with a pinch crease....i doubt it....
I never said that if I had 2 diecuts, all else being equal, I would choose the one with the crease. I just said it doesn't bother me near as much as other flaws common to diecuts. Of course if there were 2 diecuts in comparable condition I'd pick the one without the crease. I wouldn't pay a premium for one without the crease over one with it, all else being equal.
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I never said that if I had 2 diecuts, all else being equal, I would choose the one with the crease. I just said it doesn't bother me near as much as other flaws common to diecuts. Of course if there were 2 diecuts in comparable condition I'd pick the one without the crease. I wouldn't pay a premium for one without the crease over one with it, all else being equal.
You basically just said you would prefer the one without the crease but wouldn't pay a premium for your preferred item. I think you are in the minority as I feel most people would pay even a small premium for preferred items.
Regardless, I never said anything about value, I simply pointed out this marvelous PSA9 speciman has a crease on the back so it is ridiculous to grade it anywhere near PSA9. At a minimum, if the crease pinch is a factory defect, it should be a qualifier much like centering and gum stains are qualifiers for PSA. Bottom line is that if there is difference between two cards that can be seen without a magnifying glass, it seems it should impact the grade more than spotting a flaw that does require special detecting devices. This all shows what a crock of nonsense the whole grading process is and how random the criteria is for people who sorta kinda seek perfection and high grade cards.
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I still don't think this is as serious a defect as you suggest, but either way it's another example of PSA being unable to call out wacky-specific issues. This kind of thing is really only seen on wacky die cuts, much like off-center die punches. You would really need a wacky-specific grading company to expect any kind of real consistency on wacky-specific issues like these.
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I still don't think this is as serious a defect as you suggest, but either way it's another example of PSA being unable to call out wacky-specific issues. This kind of thing is really only seen on wacky die cuts, much like off-center die punches. You would really need a wacky-specific grading company to expect any kind of real consistency on wacky-specific issues like these.
I agree with you to some degree but why would it take wacky pack knowledge to see a physical crease or see diecutting around an image that is misaligned? Diecuts on trading cards is a pretty generic functional attribute much like the black border of an image.
I say it is a big deal because the tiniest hint of corner softness drops a card 2 at least two PSA grades....this grading process is a fabricated market that really lacks solid guidelines and worse yet, within the soft guidelines that do exist, it seems to lack thorough discipline.
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I still don't think this is as serious a defect as you suggest, but either way it's another example of PSA being unable to call out wacky-specific issues. This kind of thing is really only seen on wacky die cuts, much like off-center die punches. You would really need a wacky-specific grading company to expect any kind of real consistency on wacky-specific issues like these.
I think PSA should have a scoresheet for each grade tied to the serial number of the card & available on the web something like this:
TL Corner: (1 to 10 grade)
TR Corner:
BL Corner:
BR Corner:
Centering: xx% top/bottom
Centering: xx% left/right
Gloss:
Coloring/Eye appeal: (1 to 10 grade)
Left Edge: (1 to 10 grade)
Right Edge:
Top Edge:
Bottom Edge:
Clean Back:
Kinks: (1 to 10 grade)
Orientation: (sometimes the card is cut a bit off lever. The card is square, but the wacky is tilted)
Diamond cut/cut out of square:
For centering over xx%, qualifier OC, for centering over the border MC
For gum stains: GS
For other stains or marks, ST or MK
They should also note if the stain is on the front or back. Sometimes a stain on the front can be removed, or a stain on the back may not bother someone, but you can't even see it in the holder.
And give each item a grade on 1 to 10 & weighted average score of overall importance.
This way, people could buy a card with the qualities most important to them, and you'd know how they came up with the grade. Does PSA have any interest in keeping their grading criteria a secret?
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PSA publishes their grading standards, they are just no where near as precise as you would like:
http://www.psacard.com/services/psa_grading_standards.chtml
One of the other grading companies did provide a breakdown of corners, centering, maybe a couple other attributes.
I think it was SGC.
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PSA publishes their grading standards, they are just no where near as precise as you would like:
http://www.psacard.com/services/psa_grading_standards.chtml
One of the other grading companies did provide a breakdown of corners, centering, maybe a couple other attributes.
I think it was SGC.
I have seen these before & find them to be vague with a lot of wiggle room. Much more "art" than science. They also mention 8s can have slightly white borders, yet I've seen psa8s from the 4th, 5th & 6th series with extremely ugly spotting & discoloration (the non-glossys). These guidelines may refer or apply more to sports cards. Either way, they are inconsistent with their wacky grading policies & procedures IMO.
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Only 6 hours to go, so you all had better hurry if you want to place your bid - for $13,000!! Plus buyer's premium of course.
It must be Eric and whoever "bidder #2" is.
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I hit the next button and found the Cracked Animals. Why isn't this going any higher? It says die-cut/trimmed. I wonder what that means? Was the card trimmed so PSA wouldn't grade it?
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=129608&searchby=3&searchvalue=ratz&&auctionid=78&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1
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Brad, I took trimmed to mean that the card was trimmed (cut down) after it was released by Topps. It's a way to give a card ultra sharp corners but of course it's now restored or altered. To many collectors it destroys the value.
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Brad, I took trimmed to mean that the card was trimmed (cut down) after it was released by Topps. It's a way to give a card ultra sharp corners but of course it's now restored or altered. To many collectors it destroys the value.
PSA won't grade suspicious cards such as signs of trimming. I didn't know they would grade them as authentic though. A person could get this card fairly cheap, crack the case and sell it on eBay for about $2500. I'm sure it could come back to them that the card has been trimmed if the buyer ever sent it in for grading.
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I hit the next button and found the Cracked Animals. Why isn't this going any higher? It says die-cut/trimmed. I wonder what that means? Was the card trimmed so PSA wouldn't grade it?
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=129608&searchby=3&searchvalue=ratz&&auctionid=78&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1
Most likely, both the Ratz and the Cracked Animals were cut from a proof sheet lacking the black plate. The boneheads at PSA noticed the Cracked Animals was not factory cut, but missed the same flaw on the Ratz. Unbelievable what a difference the holder makes.
Edit: Yup . . . just went back and checked . . . their holders are consecutively numbered. Submitted together at the same time. Not sure how PSA screwed up on not detecting that the Ratz was not factory cut, as well.
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That sounds correct. I suspect the Cracked Animals may be slightly off size so the fact it was not factory cut was more evident.
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Most likely, both the Ratz and the Cracked Animals were cut from a proof sheet lacking the black plate. The boneheads at PSA noticed the Cracked Animals was not factory cut, but missed the same flaw on the Ratz. Unbelievable what a difference the holder makes.
Edit: Yup . . . just went back and checked . . . their holders are consecutively numbered. Submitted together at the same time. Not sure how PSA screwed up on not detecting that the Ratz was not factory cut, as well.
yep, Cracked is about a 1/10th inch too short. at least psa noticed that.
ugh, that writeup on the auction site makes me want to retch. 'comfortably validates the cards genuineness'? :puke:
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Most likely, both the Ratz and the Cracked Animals were cut from a proof sheet lacking the black plate. The boneheads at PSA noticed the Cracked Animals was not factory cut, but missed the same flaw on the Ratz. Unbelievable what a difference the holder makes.
Edit: Yup . . . just went back and checked . . . their holders are consecutively numbered. Submitted together at the same time. Not sure how PSA screwed up on not detecting that the Ratz was not factory cut, as well.
Does the cracked animals appear to be missing the black printing plate too? It looks pretty good to me. It could be possible that someone submitted their collection for grading at the same time, but not all cut from the same sheet. What do you think?
$400 is a great price. I just sold my extra punched cracked animals at auction on ebay and it went to $455.
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Does the cracked animals appear to be missing the black printing plate too? It looks pretty good to me. It could be possible that someone submitted their collection for grading at the same time, but not all cut from the same sheet. What do you think?
$400 is a great price. I just sold my extra punched cracked animals at auction on ebay and it went to $455.
Yeah, just like the Ratz, it is very bright, has the same out of register yellow and red without the cover of black masking and features very distinct blue die cut lines. I agree, the price is great and this still warrants at least twice the current price.
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What did they sell for? I just looked and it doesn't show.
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What did they sell for? I just looked and it doesn't show.
Ratz = 13k + 19.5% Buyers Premium
CA = 475 + 19.5% BP
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Ratz = 13k + 19.5% Buyers Premium
CA = 475 + 19.5% BP
Thanks!
That Cracked Animals will show up again on eBay. I should have bought it. It will sell for $2500-$4000. Some people don't collect to get them graded so this will end up in someone's collection never knowing the wiser. Then they will decide to sell it and it could be one of us forking out the cash to find that it is in fact trimmed. We think we have a treasure. Sad....
Even if it was trimmed I still am pissed I didn't bid because this would have been a hell of a placeholder. A very nice example.
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Brad, I agree with Kook's punched one selling at a similar price the Cracked Animals was a steal. On the other hand the Ratz seems like it cost a fortune to me.
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Thanks!
That Cracked Animals will show up again on eBay. I should have bought it. It will sell for $2500-$4000. Some people don't collect to get them graded so this will end up in someone's collection never knowing the wiser. Then they will decide to sell it and it could be one of us forking out the cash to find that it is in fact trimmed. We think we have a treasure. Sad....
If you look at a normal Cracked Animals and compare the space around the borders you can tell it's been trimmed, so it's more than just a sliver shaved off. It's pretty short on both sides. If you put it in a recessed screwdown it would have quite a bit of room to move around.
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$13K for that Ratz?!? Wow. Someone spent a lot of money for such an iffy card. And if someone has a sheet (or more) of these, they are probably salivating.
Interesting to me that they didn't go the eBay route. Probably afraid of too many Wacky eyes who would question the authenticity.
Seems like something should be done for this kind of thing, but no idea what or how...
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Brad, I agree with Kook's punched one selling at a similar price the Cracked Animals was a steal. On the other hand the Ratz seems like it cost a fortune to me.
I agree the cracked animals was a steal. I just sold my punched cracked animals with a cracked jerk border in a screw down about a week ago. I finally purchased an unpunched one, so I sold off my placeholder. I got $455 for it on ebay. Even trimmed, this is an awesome placeholder at a DIRT CHEAP price. For many, it would definitely suffice as the keeper. It is true the PSA holder was a liability on this auction & it will probably find its way to ebay and sell for north of $2,000. Maybe much more because outside of the trimming issue, this looks like a really nice card. I would be pissed if I purchased a cracked animals for $2k+ & sent it in for grading & it got kicked back. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that the one I just bought has no issues that will arise upon grading.
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If you look at a normal Cracked Animals and compare the space around the borders you can tell it's been trimmed, so it's more than just a sliver shaved off. It's pretty short on both sides. If you put it in a recessed screwdown it would have quite a bit of room to move around.
Is the cracked animals on an edge of the diecut sheet? I can't imagine anyone screwing up the cuttingof the sheet knowing the value of these cards. I can only think the sheet had been trimmed originally, and then the cracked was cut out of the sheet.
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I agree the cracked animals was a steal. I just sold my punched cracked animals with a cracked jerk border in a screw down about a week ago. I finally purchased an unpunched one, so I sold off my placeholder. I got $455 for it on ebay. Even trimmed, this is an awesome placeholder at a DIRT CHEAP price. For many, it would definitely suffice as the keeper. It is true the PSA holder was a liability on this auction & it will probably find its way to ebay and sell for north of $2,000. Maybe much more because outside of the trimming issue, this looks like a really nice card. I would be pissed if I purchased a cracked animals for $2k+ & sent it in for grading & it got kicked back. I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that the one I just bought has no issues that will arise upon grading.
I think anyone with one of these cards would be crazy not to get it graded. At least you would have peace of mind knowing it wasn't trimmed even if the grade comes back low. You also have a nice holder for the card :]
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Is the cracked animals on an edge of the diecut sheet? I can't imagine anyone screwing up the cuttingof the sheet knowing the value of these cards. I can only think the sheet had been trimmed originally, and then the cracked was cut out of the sheet.
I could be wrong but my assumption was that it was a single card and was trimmed down to yield sharp corners.
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I could be wrong but my assumption was that it was a single card and was trimmed down to yield sharp corners.
The going theory is that a sheet was cut up to yield cards. The fresh cuts give the ratz and cracked pristine edges as well as corners. But while the ratz was cut to a perfect 2.5 x 3.5, the cracked wasn't and ended up 2.5 x 3.4 (and skewed at that)
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I could be wrong but my assumption was that it was a single card and was trimmed down to yield sharp corners.
Based on whether the cracked animals is also missing the black plate printing, I would think it was cut from a proof sheet like most were speculating about the Ratz. If it doesn't have that printing issue, I would then think it was trimmed for sharp corners. What's your opinion on the printing of the cracked animals?
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I am definitely not a Wacky expert, but I would consider myself relatively well-informed on them.
To me $500 for that Ratz was too steep with its poor color and questionable authenticity -- meaning if someone came up and said: "would you buy this for $600?" I would have said no thanks.
I simply cannot fathom that someone shelled out $13,000 for it. I just don't get it.
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I am definitely not a Wacky expert, but I would consider myself relatively well-informed on them.
To me $500 for that Ratz was too steep with its poor color and questionable authenticity -- meaning if someone came up and said: "would you buy this for $600?" I would have said no thanks.
I simply cannot fathom that someone shelled out $13,000 for it. I just don't get it.
A picture can always be suspect. I just got in the Gaggin'strips art and it is more amazing than the picture. The gold frame just makes it shine. It's perfect! I also got in the Blog art and need to get it framed along with 3 other pieces of art. Art always amazes me when it arrives. It's so much more incredible than any scan can produce. It's night and day. Although I really wanted the tooth art and thought it would go quit high so I didn't put in a snipe. I also wanted the Strokes art but ironically I thought the Tooth would sell much higher than than Strokes because I could see a lot of pasted letters with the strokes art. I then talked myself out of buying either when the tooth sold for under $900 while strokes sold for almost double. I would have never thunk it. Art is always amazing. If you call your self a wacky collector but haven't bought any art you are missing out. Some can say that it's too expensive but look at what some of the sketches have sold for? You will be blown away. The colors just pop!
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A picture can always be suspect. I just got in the Gaggin'strips art and it is more amazing than the picture. The gold frame just makes it shine. It's perfect! I also got in the Blog art and need to get it framed along with 3 other pieces of art. Art always amazes me when it arrives. It's so much more incredible than any scan can produce. It's night and day. Although I really wanted the tooth art and thought it would go quit high so I didn't put in a snipe. I also wanted the Strokes art but ironically I thought the Tooth would sell much higher than than Strokes because I could see a lot of pasted letters with the strokes art. I then talked myself out of buying either when the tooth sold for under $900 while strokes sold for almost double. I would have never thunk it. Art is always amazing. If you call your self a wacky collector but haven't bought any art you are missing out. Some can say that it's too expensive but look at what some of the sketches have sold for? You will be blown away. The colors just pop!
I definitely agree the art can be worth that kind of price tag. But an iffy card? That just seems insane to me.
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What's your opinion on the printing of the cracked animals?
Without having the card in hand and looking at it with magnification I'm not convinced that the black plate was completely missing from the Ratz, but now that I put the Cracked side by side with the Ratz they definitely belong in the same family so the sheet theory makes more sense than a cut card.
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Without having the card in hand and looking at it with magnification I'm not convinced that the black plate was completely missing from the Ratz, but now that I put the Cracked side by side with the Ratz they definitely belong in the same family so the sheet theory makes more sense than a cut card.
I just checked for a diecut proof sheet on Greg's site:
http://wackypacks.com/sheets/die-cut_proof.html
It appears cracked animals is more in the middle than on an edge of the sheet. I would think there may have been some damage or fold to the sheet the cracked animals was cut from to get a trimmed designation. I would still believe it would be hard to screw up the cutting in this day & age & considering the owner knew what he had.
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I just checked for a diecut proof sheet on Greg's site:
http://wackypacks.com/sheets/die-cut_proof.html
It appears cracked animals is more in the middle than on an edge of the sheet. I would think there may have been some damage or fold to the sheet the cracked animals was cut from to get a trimmed designation. I would still believe it would be hard to screw up the cutting in this day & age & considering the owner knew what he had.
So how much would one of these sheets go for (approximately)?